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RE: [XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor

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  • Nick Robinson
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    Message 1 of 41 , Mar 2, 2003
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      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Kiel Hodges <kielhodges@...>
      > [mailto:kielhodges@...]
      > Sent: 01 March 2003 15:17
      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor
      >
      >
      > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Robinson"
      > <nicholasrobinson@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > ...
      > >
      > > When I wrote the above I was also thinking of the
      > > situation when everything that is to be built is dependant on
      > the DB facade.
      > > However I was trying to play devils advocate. I dont see such
      > a situation
      > > of total dependance a reality. I certainly havent seen it so
      > far in my
      > > career.
      >
      > One of the most powerful techniques I've learned from doing XP is
      > "out of order implementation".
      >
      > The code is produced in test driven fashion. To effectively test
      > a class, it needs to be decoupled from other things (which
      > happens to be a good thing anyway). In the case of a class that
      > depends on the DB facade to fulfill its own responsbility, you
      > don't want to depend on the actual DB facade implementation.
      > Instead, depend on an abstraction that DB facade implements. For
      > the test, use a mock implementation of that abstraction.
      >
      > Say we're doing a task that requires that a class retrieve an
      > instance of another class from the DB facade. There is another
      > task to implement that retrieval. We can proceed with our task
      > without waiting on the other because we aren't going to use the
      > real facade anyway. It's easy to have the mock give us the right
      > answer for the particular test.
      >
      > In the case where the facade itself doesn't yet exist, have a
      > /quick/ discussion to come up with the interface. Don't get too
      > caught up in designing the perfect interface, just come up with
      > something that's close enough. If the interface changes a little
      > when the real facade is implemented, just make the necessary
      > adjustments to the mock (or vice versa!) In my experience, this
      > is trivial for a team that emphasizes communication.

      Yeh...that makes total sense. One thing - I read somewhere that the mocks
      you have, the more the test cases smell. Another one of those ill-defined
      statements by somebody that causes confusion for those who are learning new
      ideas.

      Thanks Kiel for the above btw.
      >
      > Kiel Hodges
      > SelfSo Software
      >
      >
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    • Nick Robinson
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      Message 41 of 41 , Mar 2, 2003
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        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: George Dinwiddie [mailto:programminglists@...]
        > Sent: 01 March 2003 16:29
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Nick Robinson wrote:
        > >
        > >>Why would you create a class graph? Is the class graph just a
        > >>representation of the customer's experience and knowledge in the
        > >>domain? Why would the programmers want this on paper? Why would the
        > >>customer pay for it? Why not just ask the customer how their domain
        > >>works? How does having a class graph give you information about an
        > >>estimate?
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > > Why would the customer want to pay for a class graph? Thats not
        > what I am
        > > alluding too. Forget XP a second - remember we are doing these
        > workshops as
        > > we dont know XP, and come from an RUP/UP background (or dare I
        > admit it an
        > > ICONIX background for some). These artefacts are what we have typically
        > > produced, and therefore thats why they are being mentioned in
        > the workshops.
        >
        > The question is "for whom are these artifacts produced and what need to
        > they have for them?" "Because we've always done it that way" is a weak
        > reason. You need to ask "why" again (and perhaps again, again) to
        > uncover the underlying reason, if there is one.

        I think you hit the nail on the head though. The "Because we've always done
        it that way" is a subconcious manifestation that affects the thinking when
        in a common situation were experience has been gained. In XP it is obvious
        such questions need to be answered, again and again to reinforce the point.
        In RUP certain documents are produced through the workflow, as they add
        value to the process and the team working that process (at least thats the
        idea though I have seen this fail).

        >
        > - George
        >
        > --
        > -------------------------
        > George Dinwiddie
        > agile programmer for hire
        > Baltimore/Washington area
        > gdinwiddie@...
        > -------------------------
        >
        >
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