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[XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor

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  • jhrothjr <yahoogroups@jhrothjr.com>
    ... Did we deliver a story in the sense we usually mean it in iteration planning? I don t think so - it wasn t in a form that a customer could take out and
    Message 1 of 41 , Mar 1 11:06 AM
      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kiel Hodges <kielhodges@m...>" <kielhodges@m...> wrote:
      > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "jhrothjr
      > <yahoogroups@j...>" <yahoogroups@j...> wrote:
      > > Your first iteration is kind of special. You're going to be
      > > shaking down the development environment. Besides this, you
      > > need to put out something that goes end to end. For example,
      > > if it's a web application, at the end of the iteration, you
      > > need to be able to fire up a browser, get to the server, and
      > > request some kind of a page. With all of the appropriate tests.
      > > Any real user functionality that gets in there is a bonus.
      > > Granted, a real nice bonus, but still a bonus.
      >
      > John, I've heard this before, but I've never been comfortable with
      > it. It seems to me that an iteration that doesn't implement any
      > /User/ Stories should be the exception.
      >
      > As you recall, you and I struggled with setting up our environment
      > during Tuesday's Code Fest. Still, we delivered a story. And that
      > was a two hour iteration!

      Did we deliver a story in the sense we usually mean it in
      iteration planning? I don't think so - it wasn't in a form
      that a customer could take out and install anywhere. To me,
      that's one of the defining conditions on an iteration: it
      delivers a user installable package at the end (and possibly
      in the middle as well, but that's optional.)

      John Roth

      >
      > Kiel Hodges
      > SelfSo Software
    • Nick Robinson
      ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
      Message 41 of 41 , Mar 2 1:14 AM
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: George Dinwiddie [mailto:programminglists@...]
        > Sent: 01 March 2003 16:29
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Nick Robinson wrote:
        > >
        > >>Why would you create a class graph? Is the class graph just a
        > >>representation of the customer's experience and knowledge in the
        > >>domain? Why would the programmers want this on paper? Why would the
        > >>customer pay for it? Why not just ask the customer how their domain
        > >>works? How does having a class graph give you information about an
        > >>estimate?
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > > Why would the customer want to pay for a class graph? Thats not
        > what I am
        > > alluding too. Forget XP a second - remember we are doing these
        > workshops as
        > > we dont know XP, and come from an RUP/UP background (or dare I
        > admit it an
        > > ICONIX background for some). These artefacts are what we have typically
        > > produced, and therefore thats why they are being mentioned in
        > the workshops.
        >
        > The question is "for whom are these artifacts produced and what need to
        > they have for them?" "Because we've always done it that way" is a weak
        > reason. You need to ask "why" again (and perhaps again, again) to
        > uncover the underlying reason, if there is one.

        I think you hit the nail on the head though. The "Because we've always done
        it that way" is a subconcious manifestation that affects the thinking when
        in a common situation were experience has been gained. In XP it is obvious
        such questions need to be answered, again and again to reinforce the point.
        In RUP certain documents are produced through the workflow, as they add
        value to the process and the team working that process (at least thats the
        idea though I have seen this fail).

        >
        > - George
        >
        > --
        > -------------------------
        > George Dinwiddie
        > agile programmer for hire
        > Baltimore/Washington area
        > gdinwiddie@...
        > -------------------------
        >
        >
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