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RE: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...

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  • Nick Robinson
    ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 1 2:20 AM
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      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
      > Sent: 28 February 2003 22:54
      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
      >
      >
      > On Wednesday, February 26, 2003, at 3:12:23 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:
      >
      > > That was last week. This week we decided to start the planning game. I
      > > suggested we develop the Lemonade Game. Its fun, relatively
      > simple, and its
      > > accessible enough for us to see the key parts of XP in
      > practise. The idea
      > > behind this week was to discuss the system and then build the
      > user stories.
      > > I appreciate the user stories should have been written by the
      > customer (who
      > > was me in this workshop). I decided to play my trump card and
      > said that I
      > > am a customer from an old skool process, and I dont have time
      > to write the
      > > stories, nor would I want to when I dont know what goes on them.
      >
      > What caused you to do this? I would think that if I were going to
      > experiment with the planning game, I'd start with a situation that matches
      > the entry criteria, rather than try to do the planning game with a
      > disengaged customer. But we'll see how it went ...

      Maybe. We had a discussion before hand, and a majority believed the
      customer would be the anal retentive who we would not be able to get to
      develop the stores.
      >
      > > This is
      > > how it went - I would love to hear some comments on this.
      >
      > > 1. The lemonade game was explained by me to the team.
      > > 2. Team asked questions and together we developed a better
      > understanding of
      > > the requirements.
      >
      > Sounds good so far ...
      >
      > > 3. Next we knew we had to create our stories. I basically iterated what
      > > people had said here, in that they are essentially use cases (ignoring
      > > acceptance tests for this part of the XP workshops.
      >
      > I would say that user stories are not enough like use cases to make that a
      > useful analogy. And I would not ignore acceptance tests, as they are, to
      > me, a critical part of the planning process.

      I dont understand. We havent done anything yet with the system apart from
      have a quick discussion. I htink I am must be missing something, or have
      overloooked it in the books. How would we be thinking of acceptance tests
      right at the very begining?

      >
      > > 4. The team then had a stab at the use cases (stories): Purchase Stock,
      > > Define Recipe, Start the Day, Setup Game, Set Price (a rough sketch).
      > > 5. How to move forward from this was then discussed. I explained
      > > tentatively that the idea is that the stories could be fleshed
      > out a little
      > > now so that they could produce their estimates (I explained the
      > notion of
      > > craft units etc).
      >
      > > At this stage I feel it kinda broke down a little. I was under the
      > > impression that within this first planning scenario, the
      > programmers would
      > > estimate on all of the story cards, I would choose which I
      > wanted to have
      > > built first, and they would do they "ooo...ahhh" with the
      > technical issues
      > > and together we would review what goes in the first release
      > iteration. It
      > > didnt work out quite like that. The workshop has concluded with the
      > > following as a result:
      >
      > > 1. Two people are going to consider the requirements (going
      > over the stories
      > > so far) and will produce a domain model.
      >
      > In similar exercises that I do, I make them estimate the stories. If a
      > story is for some reason too big, I get them to break it down. If they
      > think it might be easy or might be hard, I get them to see if
      > there is part
      > of it to break out. I get them to ignore small difference. Often I start
      > with one story that looks easy to the team, then get them to estimate the
      > others as a function of it.
      >
      > I've had success getting estimates on around 40 or 50 stories in a couple
      > of hours.
      >

      Ok thanks for that. I think part of the problem is the stories werent fully
      explained (at least on the cards). Maybe thats what made it harder.

      > > 2. I will write up the stories and also create a Yahoo Group
      > for the team to
      > > use to document the workshopa and have a forum for us all to
      > discuss wihtin
      > > (we are all consultants and are therefore remote for some of the working
      > > week). I also felt this was a good idea, because people here
      > could maybe
      > > see how we are doing and offer some guidance...that might not happen.
      >
      > I've not done this. XP is about together. If we try to do it
      >
      > > 3. Two people will get the development environment setup. This involves
      > > installing VSS on a server and getting Draco running (Continual
      > Integration)
      >
      > OK. I like to start people thinking about XP after the environment is
      > somewhat set up.
      >

      Is that a guaranteed reality, or do you mean as a way of ignoring it when
      starting off in learning XP?

      > > 4. Oh yes, three others will do some domain modelling and the
      > other pair who
      > > are modelling will get together with them before the next workshop to
      > > normalize their ideas.
      >
      > I don't recall this being a recommended XP step. And I'd be thinking
      > "together".

      Ok I agree actually.

      >
      > > I think it will be the next workshop were the development team
      > writes down
      > > their estimates. Their argument (which seems reasonable), is
      > that they need
      > > to spend this time between now and the next workshop to try to
      > understand
      > > what the system has to do (high-level) and were the risky areas
      > are. They
      > > want to conisder architecture, which I corrected as metaphor.
      > The workshop
      > > ended.
      >
      > Is there a writeup of the lemonade game somewhere? I'd like to do it. Paul
      > Friedman: you want to pair on a lemonade game chapter?

      I can put it on the yahoo group. I left it at work so I will do it on
      Monday. If you use my write-up, there wont be any inconsistency. That
      would be cool.

      >
      > > We were all buzzing at the end which is cool, but I think some detail in
      > > some of the areas that was lacking resulted in a good 20
      > mintues scattered
      > > throughout the session with people just thinking and wondering
      > about what
      > > things mean.
      >
      > > Anyway, thats the workshop for this week.
      >
      > Sounds cool. And -- meaning absolutely no disrespect whatsoever, because
      > you did well -- it also underlines how helpful it can be to have someone
      > involved who gets XP.
      >

      I know I agree. I dig XP in a Beatnik fashion, but I am merely reading
      about it. I am doing my best, for the best intentions. But it doesnt beat
      having raw experience involved. I am kinda thinking the next workshop we
      just start again from last week. I have a lot more knowledge now from all
      of those helpful enough to reply to my questions here (thanks!). This should
      allow me to answer some of the more architecurally related questions, such
      that they dont knock us off track like last week.

      One other question. In the first planning phase, were the customer sits
      down with the team to walk through the stories, would the development team
      break the stories into task cards in the same meeting?

      Thanks for your time Ron, it is appreciated.

      Nick.
      > Ron Jeffries
      > www.XProgramming.com
      > Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Picasso
      >
      >
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    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Sure, and they might be. But to learn XP, I d start with the ideal situation, learn the techniques, then move to the advanced situation where the customer
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 1 3:29 AM
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        On Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 5:20:57 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

        >> > was me in this workshop). I decided to play my trump card and
        >> said that I
        >> > am a customer from an old skool process, and I dont have time
        >> to write the
        >> > stories, nor would I want to when I dont know what goes on them.
        >>
        >> What caused you to do this? I would think that if I were going to
        >> experiment with the planning game, I'd start with a situation that matches
        >> the entry criteria, rather than try to do the planning game with a
        >> disengaged customer. But we'll see how it went ...

        > Maybe. We had a discussion before hand, and a majority believed the
        > customer would be the anal retentive who we would not be able to get to
        > develop the stores.

        Sure, and they might be. But to learn XP, I'd start with the ideal
        situation, learn the techniques, then move to the advanced situation where
        the customer cannot play by the XP rules. Anyway, you did what you did, I
        was just wondering.

        >> > 3. Next we knew we had to create our stories. I basically iterated what
        >> > people had said here, in that they are essentially use cases (ignoring
        >> > acceptance tests for this part of the XP workshops.
        >>
        >> I would say that user stories are not enough like use cases to make that a
        >> useful analogy. And I would not ignore acceptance tests, as they are, to
        >> me, a critical part of the planning process.

        > I dont understand. We havent done anything yet with the system apart from
        > have a quick discussion. I htink I am must be missing something, or have
        > overloooked it in the books. How would we be thinking of acceptance tests
        > right at the very begining?

        Well, maybe I'm not understanding you. To me, one essential part of a user
        story is the test. In a very real sense, there /is/ no user story until
        there is a test. But I may be getting ahead of your story: the specific
        acceptance tests could start to take shape (and IMO should) in the next
        step:

        >> > 4. The team then had a stab at the use cases (stories): Purchase Stock,
        >> > Define Recipe, Start the Day, Setup Game, Set Price (a rough sketch).
        >> > 5. How to move forward from this was then discussed. I explained
        >> > tentatively that the idea is that the stories could be fleshed
        >> out a little
        >> > now so that they could produce their estimates (I explained the
        >> notion of
        >> > craft units etc).
        >>
        >> > At this stage I feel it kinda broke down a little. I was under the
        >> > impression that within this first planning scenario, the
        >> programmers would
        >> > estimate on all of the story cards, I would choose which I
        >> wanted to have
        >> > built first, and they would do they "ooo...ahhh" with the
        >> technical issues
        >> > and together we would review what goes in the first release
        >> iteration. It
        >> > didnt work out quite like that. The workshop has concluded with the
        >> > following as a result:
        >>
        >> > 1. Two people are going to consider the requirements (going
        >> over the stories
        >> > so far) and will produce a domain model.
        >>
        >> In similar exercises that I do, I make them estimate the stories. If a
        >> story is for some reason too big, I get them to break it down. If they
        >> think it might be easy or might be hard, I get them to see if
        >> there is part
        >> of it to break out. I get them to ignore small difference. Often I start
        >> with one story that looks easy to the team, then get them to estimate the
        >> others as a function of it.
        >>
        >> I've had success getting estimates on around 40 or 50 stories in a couple
        >> of hours.
        >>

        > Ok thanks for that. I think part of the problem is the stories werent fully
        > explained (at least on the cards). Maybe thats what made it harder.

        Stories in XP are not explained on the cards. They are explained by the
        customer, sitting with the rest of the team, saying what each card is. At
        that time, the team will explore "how are we going to test that," which
        adds a note of concreteness to each story.

        This is why I'd have started with a "cooperative" customer. The real XP
        process is card, conversation, confirmation. The card is just a pass for a
        conversation; the conversation fills in the details between customer and
        developers; the confirmation is the test, a contract for what the team will
        build.

        When the customer isn't doing the planning game, then you have to add on
        all kinds of odd things that aren't necessary in a more pure situation. One
        advantage of doing the exercise with a cooperative customer is that it
        helps the participants realize how valuable customer cooperation is, so
        that they will go further to get it instead of falling back on the written
        word.

        >> OK. I like to start people thinking about XP after the environment is
        >> somewhat set up.

        >> > 3. Two people will get the development environment setup. This involves
        >> > installing VSS on a server and getting Draco running (Continual
        >> Integration)

        > Is that a guaranteed reality, or do you mean as a way of ignoring it when
        > starting off in learning XP?

        I'm not sure I understand the question. I guess in this situation someone
        has to set it up. I was just saying I like it to be ready when we start.

        >> > 4. Oh yes, three others will do some domain modelling and the
        >> other pair who
        >> > are modelling will get together with them before the next workshop to
        >> > normalize their ideas.
        >>
        >> I don't recall this being a recommended XP step. And I'd be thinking
        >> "together".

        > Ok I agree actually.

        I really think this might be a fairly major bug in the exercise. On
        something as small as this, I might allow ten minutes of "domain modeling"
        discussion during planning, with some CRC cards. These folks may spend
        hours. An XP team, especially in a small exercise like this, would quickly
        move to code and let the modeling sort out with the aid of refactoring.

        But I'm just guessing -- I wasn't there to see what happened. I'd be alert
        next time for signs of too much commitment to the design. I might well say
        "Let's set this aside now, and start with simple code and refactoring. When
        we're done doing in in the XP way, let's compare what we come up with to
        these modeling ideas."

        >>
        >> > I think it will be the next workshop were the development team
        >> writes down
        >> > their estimates. Their argument (which seems reasonable), is
        >> that they need
        >> > to spend this time between now and the next workshop to try to
        >> understand
        >> > what the system has to do (high-level) and were the risky areas
        >> are. They
        >> > want to conisder architecture, which I corrected as metaphor.
        >> The workshop
        >> > ended.
        >>
        >> Is there a writeup of the lemonade game somewhere? I'd like to do it. Paul
        >> Friedman: you want to pair on a lemonade game chapter?

        > I can put it on the yahoo group. I left it at work so I will do it on
        > Monday. If you use my write-up, there wont be any inconsistency. That
        > would be cool.

        There may still be inconsistency, unless you want to come and be the onsite
        customer for the project. Because whoever sets my priorities won't be you.

        >> > We were all buzzing at the end which is cool, but I think some detail in
        >> > some of the areas that was lacking resulted in a good 20
        >> mintues scattered
        >> > throughout the session with people just thinking and wondering
        >> about what
        >> > things mean.
        >>
        >> > Anyway, thats the workshop for this week.
        >>
        >> Sounds cool. And -- meaning absolutely no disrespect whatsoever, because
        >> you did well -- it also underlines how helpful it can be to have someone
        >> involved who gets XP.
        >>

        > I know I agree. I dig XP in a Beatnik fashion, but I am merely reading
        > about it. I am doing my best, for the best intentions. But it doesnt beat
        > having raw experience involved. I am kinda thinking the next workshop we
        > just start again from last week. I have a lot more knowledge now from all
        > of those helpful enough to reply to my questions here (thanks!). This should
        > allow me to answer some of the more architecurally related questions, such
        > that they dont knock us off track like last week.

        > One other question. In the first planning phase, were the customer sits
        > down with the team to walk through the stories, would the development team
        > break the stories into task cards in the same meeting?

        I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want to use some
        cards to write down notes about things they think need to be done. For
        anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why I'd need task
        cards.

        Frankly I wish I had never written about them.

        > Thanks for your time Ron, it is appreciated.

        You're welcome.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        I could be wrong, but I'm not. --Eagles, Victim of Love
      • Friedman, Paul
        Ron, Nick, et aliud, ... First things first, that sounds fun. ... If you want to, putting your write-up somewhere would be good but . . . I agree with Ron
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 1 9:32 AM
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          Ron, Nick, et aliud,

          > >>
          > >> > I think it will be the next workshop were the development team
          > >> writes down
          > >> > their estimates. Their argument (which seems reasonable), is
          > >> that they need
          > >> > to spend this time between now and the next workshop to try to
          > >> understand
          > >> > what the system has to do (high-level) and were the risky areas
          > >> are. They
          > >> > want to conisder architecture, which I corrected as metaphor.
          > >> The workshop
          > >> > ended.
          > >>
          > >> Is there a writeup of the lemonade game somewhere? I'd
          > like to do it. Paul
          > >> Friedman: you want to pair on a lemonade game chapter?
          >

          First things first, that sounds fun.

          > > I can put it on the yahoo group. I left it at work so I
          > will do it on
          > > Monday. If you use my write-up, there wont be any
          > inconsistency. That
          > > would be cool.
          >

          If you want to, putting your write-up somewhere would be good but . . .
          I agree with Ron below.
          I think the interesting part would be having two
          separate teams deal with the same (or a very similar) situation and see how
          similar/different the approaches are and if they come to the same solutions.

          We could see if the methodology causes teams to follow the same path.

          > There may still be inconsistency, unless you want to come and
          > be the onsite
          > customer for the project. Because whoever sets my priorities
          > won't be you.
          >

          And as Hamlet said "there's the rub". Having two separate customers
          will drive the two separate teams in differing ways. However, I
          still think that it would be a fruitful exercise to create a comparison
          between the two.

          (I think I am paraphrasing my English prof. above. He /always/ used to
          say "Even though you have apples and oranges, you still can make a fruitful
          comparison".)

          < space for obligatory groan />

          pax et bonum. p.
        • Nick Robinson
          ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 2 1:04 AM
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
            > Sent: 01 March 2003 11:29
            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
            >
            >
            > On Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 5:20:57 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:
            >
            > >> > was me in this workshop). I decided to play my trump card and
            > >> said that I
            > >> > am a customer from an old skool process, and I dont have time
            > >> to write the
            > >> > stories, nor would I want to when I dont know what goes on them.
            > >>
            > >> What caused you to do this? I would think that if I were going to
            > >> experiment with the planning game, I'd start with a situation
            > that matches
            > >> the entry criteria, rather than try to do the planning game with a
            > >> disengaged customer. But we'll see how it went ...
            >
            > > Maybe. We had a discussion before hand, and a majority believed the
            > > customer would be the anal retentive who we would not be able to get to
            > > develop the stores.
            >
            > Sure, and they might be. But to learn XP, I'd start with the ideal
            > situation, learn the techniques, then move to the advanced situation where
            > the customer cannot play by the XP rules. Anyway, you did what you did, I
            > was just wondering.

            Its done now. Also remember, though I started the workshops and have my
            opinions of how it should run, I also want the people in the workshop to
            feel they are also directing it. Its meant to be a collective initiative.
            I would have preferred to have not worried about the retentive customer, but
            collectively it was felt more close to reality (?) and therefore we went
            with it. I would have preferred not too. I have already noticed some side
            effects of doing it that way...

            >
            > >> > 3. Next we knew we had to create our stories. I basically
            > iterated what
            > >> > people had said here, in that they are essentially use cases
            > (ignoring
            > >> > acceptance tests for this part of the XP workshops.
            > >>
            > >> I would say that user stories are not enough like use cases to
            > make that a
            > >> useful analogy. And I would not ignore acceptance tests, as
            > they are, to
            > >> me, a critical part of the planning process.
            >
            > > I dont understand. We havent done anything yet with the system
            > apart from
            > > have a quick discussion. I htink I am must be missing
            > something, or have
            > > overloooked it in the books. How would we be thinking of
            > acceptance tests
            > > right at the very begining?
            >
            > Well, maybe I'm not understanding you. To me, one essential part of a user
            > story is the test. In a very real sense, there /is/ no user story until
            > there is a test. But I may be getting ahead of your story: the specific
            > acceptance tests could start to take shape (and IMO should) in the next
            > step:
            >

            hhmmm...I think I read somewhere that the customer would work on the tests
            for the stories but they wouldnt be produced at the same time of the
            stories? I doubt you have missed the point here...

            > >> > 4. The team then had a stab at the use cases (stories):
            > Purchase Stock,
            > >> > Define Recipe, Start the Day, Setup Game, Set Price (a rough sketch).
            > >> > 5. How to move forward from this was then discussed. I explained
            > >> > tentatively that the idea is that the stories could be fleshed
            > >> out a little
            > >> > now so that they could produce their estimates (I explained the
            > >> notion of
            > >> > craft units etc).
            > >>
            > >> > At this stage I feel it kinda broke down a little. I was under the
            > >> > impression that within this first planning scenario, the
            > >> programmers would
            > >> > estimate on all of the story cards, I would choose which I
            > >> wanted to have
            > >> > built first, and they would do they "ooo...ahhh" with the
            > >> technical issues
            > >> > and together we would review what goes in the first release
            > >> iteration. It
            > >> > didnt work out quite like that. The workshop has concluded with the
            > >> > following as a result:
            > >>
            > >> > 1. Two people are going to consider the requirements (going
            > >> over the stories
            > >> > so far) and will produce a domain model.
            > >>
            > >> In similar exercises that I do, I make them estimate the stories. If a
            > >> story is for some reason too big, I get them to break it down. If they
            > >> think it might be easy or might be hard, I get them to see if
            > >> there is part
            > >> of it to break out. I get them to ignore small difference.
            > Often I start
            > >> with one story that looks easy to the team, then get them to
            > estimate the
            > >> others as a function of it.
            > >>
            > >> I've had success getting estimates on around 40 or 50 stories
            > in a couple
            > >> of hours.
            > >>
            >
            > > Ok thanks for that. I think part of the problem is the stories
            > werent fully
            > > explained (at least on the cards). Maybe thats what made it harder.
            >
            > Stories in XP are not explained on the cards. They are explained by the
            > customer, sitting with the rest of the team, saying what each card is. At
            > that time, the team will explore "how are we going to test that," which
            > adds a note of concreteness to each story.

            Now as I was playing difficult customer, the level of unhelpfulness was down
            to me. The only thing I didnt do was come to the meeting with a bunch of
            completed stories. After that, the above was true. I was trying to steer
            towards the more productive path (helpful customer) but played an unhelpful
            customer. They thought I was being unhelpful but in reality I wasnt, and we
            made some progress. This meant I was really involved with joining in the
            discovery of the problem. I was asked about a story and I returned a
            verbose explanation of what it meant to me as a customer - without touching
            on the development perspectives too much.

            One thing that hs got me thinking is this: nobody mentioned "how are we
            going to test that". That type of thinking is a way of thinking in such XP
            meetings. hhmmm...

            >
            > This is why I'd have started with a "cooperative" customer. The real XP
            > process is card, conversation, confirmation. The card is just a pass for a
            > conversation; the conversation fills in the details between customer and
            > developers; the confirmation is the test, a contract for what the
            > team will
            > build.
            >
            > When the customer isn't doing the planning game, then you have to add on
            > all kinds of odd things that aren't necessary in a more pure
            > situation. One
            > advantage of doing the exercise with a cooperative customer is that it
            > helps the participants realize how valuable customer cooperation is, so
            > that they will go further to get it instead of falling back on the written
            > word.
            >
            > >> OK. I like to start people thinking about XP after the environment is
            > >> somewhat set up.
            >
            > >> > 3. Two people will get the development environment setup.
            > This involves
            > >> > installing VSS on a server and getting Draco running (Continual
            > >> Integration)
            >
            > > Is that a guaranteed reality, or do you mean as a way of
            > ignoring it when
            > > starting off in learning XP?
            >
            > I'm not sure I understand the question. I guess in this situation someone
            > has to set it up. I was just saying I like it to be ready when we start.
            >

            Ok. In our situation one of our key decisions was what we develop in, Java
            or C#. Until that decision was made, some of the decisions about tool
            support couldnt be finalised.

            > >> > 4. Oh yes, three others will do some domain modelling and the
            > >> other pair who
            > >> > are modelling will get together with them before the next workshop to
            > >> > normalize their ideas.
            > >>
            > >> I don't recall this being a recommended XP step. And I'd be thinking
            > >> "together".
            >
            > > Ok I agree actually.
            >
            > I really think this might be a fairly major bug in the exercise. On
            > something as small as this, I might allow ten minutes of "domain modeling"
            > discussion during planning, with some CRC cards. These folks may spend
            > hours. An XP team, especially in a small exercise like this, would quickly
            > move to code and let the modeling sort out with the aid of refactoring.
            >
            > But I'm just guessing -- I wasn't there to see what happened. I'd be alert
            > next time for signs of too much commitment to the design. I might well say
            > "Let's set this aside now, and start with simple code and
            > refactoring. When
            > we're done doing in in the XP way, let's compare what we come up with to
            > these modeling ideas."
            >

            Admittedly when the workshop had ended and all types of modelling was being
            banded about as people left, I felt that aspect had failed. I really didnt
            want to do too much modelling at all. hhhmmmm.....I got an uneasy feeling
            then and I get an even bigger one now.

            > >>
            > >> > I think it will be the next workshop were the development team
            > >> writes down
            > >> > their estimates. Their argument (which seems reasonable), is
            > >> that they need
            > >> > to spend this time between now and the next workshop to try to
            > >> understand
            > >> > what the system has to do (high-level) and were the risky areas
            > >> are. They
            > >> > want to conisder architecture, which I corrected as metaphor.
            > >> The workshop
            > >> > ended.
            > >>
            > >> Is there a writeup of the lemonade game somewhere? I'd like to
            > do it. Paul
            > >> Friedman: you want to pair on a lemonade game chapter?
            >
            > > I can put it on the yahoo group. I left it at work so I will do it on
            > > Monday. If you use my write-up, there wont be any inconsistency. That
            > > would be cool.
            >
            > There may still be inconsistency, unless you want to come and be
            > the onsite
            > customer for the project. Because whoever sets my priorities won't be you.
            >

            Fair enough. We could do a netmeeting.

            > >> > We were all buzzing at the end which is cool, but I think
            > some detail in
            > >> > some of the areas that was lacking resulted in a good 20
            > >> mintues scattered
            > >> > throughout the session with people just thinking and wondering
            > >> about what
            > >> > things mean.
            > >>
            > >> > Anyway, thats the workshop for this week.
            > >>
            > >> Sounds cool. And -- meaning absolutely no disrespect
            > whatsoever, because
            > >> you did well -- it also underlines how helpful it can be to
            > have someone
            > >> involved who gets XP.
            > >>
            >
            > > I know I agree. I dig XP in a Beatnik fashion, but I am merely reading
            > > about it. I am doing my best, for the best intentions. But it
            > doesnt beat
            > > having raw experience involved. I am kinda thinking the next
            > workshop we
            > > just start again from last week. I have a lot more knowledge
            > now from all
            > > of those helpful enough to reply to my questions here
            > (thanks!). This should
            > > allow me to answer some of the more architecurally related
            > questions, such
            > > that they dont knock us off track like last week.
            >
            > > One other question. In the first planning phase, were the customer sits
            > > down with the team to walk through the stories, would the
            > development team
            > > break the stories into task cards in the same meeting?
            >
            > I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want to use some
            > cards to write down notes about things they think need to be done. For
            > anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why I'd need task
            > cards.
            >
            > Frankly I wish I had never written about them.

            But Kent mentions them as a key part of iteration planning, or has it moved
            on much more since he wrote the book?

            >
            > > Thanks for your time Ron, it is appreciated.
            >
            > You're welcome.
            >
            > Ron Jeffries
            > www.XProgramming.com
            > I could be wrong, but I'm not. --Eagles, Victim of Love
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
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            >

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          • Nick Robinson
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            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 2 1:14 AM
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              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Friedman, Paul [mailto:paulf@...]
              > Sent: 01 March 2003 17:33
              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
              >
              >
              > Ron, Nick, et aliud,
              >
              > > >>
              > > >> > I think it will be the next workshop were the development team
              > > >> writes down
              > > >> > their estimates. Their argument (which seems reasonable), is
              > > >> that they need
              > > >> > to spend this time between now and the next workshop to try to
              > > >> understand
              > > >> > what the system has to do (high-level) and were the risky areas
              > > >> are. They
              > > >> > want to conisder architecture, which I corrected as metaphor.
              > > >> The workshop
              > > >> > ended.
              > > >>
              > > >> Is there a writeup of the lemonade game somewhere? I'd
              > > like to do it. Paul
              > > >> Friedman: you want to pair on a lemonade game chapter?
              > >
              >
              > First things first, that sounds fun.
              >
              > > > I can put it on the yahoo group. I left it at work so I
              > > will do it on
              > > > Monday. If you use my write-up, there wont be any
              > > inconsistency. That
              > > > would be cool.
              > >
              >
              > If you want to, putting your write-up somewhere would be good but . . .
              > I agree with Ron below.
              > I think the interesting part would be having two
              > separate teams deal with the same (or a very similar) situation
              > and see how
              > similar/different the approaches are and if they come to the same
              > solutions.
              >
              > We could see if the methodology causes teams to follow the same path.
              >

              But there could be fundamental differences that cause a divergence that
              would upset the end result. The two could be way off from each other....or
              maybe not I guess.

              > > There may still be inconsistency, unless you want to come and
              > > be the onsite
              > > customer for the project. Because whoever sets my priorities
              > > won't be you.
              > >
              >
              > And as Hamlet said "there's the rub". Having two separate customers
              > will drive the two separate teams in differing ways. However, I
              > still think that it would be a fruitful exercise to create a comparison
              > between the two.
              >
              > (I think I am paraphrasing my English prof. above. He /always/ used to
              > say "Even though you have apples and oranges, you still can make
              > a fruitful
              > comparison".)
              >
              > < space for obligatory groan />
              >
              > pax et bonum. p.
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >
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              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
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            • Ron Jeffries
              ... Certainly they need not be produced. But a wise and experienced customer probably has how will I test that? in mind when writing each story. And of
              Message 6 of 27 , Mar 2 3:24 AM
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                On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                >> Well, maybe I'm not understanding you. To me, one essential part of a user
                >> story is the test. In a very real sense, there /is/ no user story until
                >> there is a test. But I may be getting ahead of your story: the specific
                >> acceptance tests could start to take shape (and IMO should) in the next
                >> step:
                >>

                > hhmmm...I think I read somewhere that the customer would work on the tests
                > for the stories but they wouldnt be produced at the same time of the
                > stories? I doubt you have missed the point here...

                Certainly they need not be produced. But a wise and experienced customer
                probably has "how will I test that?" in mind when writing each story. And
                of course CATs are among the most frequently missed XP practices. So if I
                were to practice writing stories with folks, I'd put that notion in early.

                When discussing stories in planning, "How will we test this?" again becomes
                a great question to focus attention on making things concrete.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Sigs are like I Ching or Tarot. They don't mean anything,
                but sometimes if you think about them you'll get a useful idea.
              • Ron Jeffries
                ... I d not say failed . I d save that for when they stone you. But perhaps it wasn t ideal. We can t reach instantly from where we are to XP, and when we
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 2 3:35 AM
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                  On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                  >> >> > 4. Oh yes, three others will do some domain modelling and the
                  >> >> other pair who
                  >> >> > are modelling will get together with them before the next workshop to
                  >> >> > normalize their ideas.
                  >> >>
                  >> >> I don't recall this being a recommended XP step. And I'd be thinking
                  >> >> "together".
                  >>
                  >> > Ok I agree actually.
                  >>
                  >> I really think this might be a fairly major bug in the exercise. On
                  >> something as small as this, I might allow ten minutes of "domain modeling"
                  >> discussion during planning, with some CRC cards. These folks may spend
                  >> hours. An XP team, especially in a small exercise like this, would quickly
                  >> move to code and let the modeling sort out with the aid of refactoring.
                  >>
                  >> But I'm just guessing -- I wasn't there to see what happened. I'd be alert
                  >> next time for signs of too much commitment to the design. I might well say
                  >> "Let's set this aside now, and start with simple code and
                  >> refactoring. When
                  >> we're done doing in in the XP way, let's compare what we come up with to
                  >> these modeling ideas."
                  >>

                  > Admittedly when the workshop had ended and all types of modelling was being
                  > banded about as people left, I felt that aspect had failed. I really didnt
                  > want to do too much modelling at all. hhhmmmm.....I got an uneasy feeling
                  > then and I get an even bigger one now.

                  I'd not say "failed". I'd save that for when they stone you. But perhaps it
                  wasn't ideal. We can't reach instantly from where we are to XP, and when we
                  have a modeling vocabulary to share ideas in, and no code base to speak of,
                  it's natural to work in pictures or CRC. We want to learn not to trust the
                  pictures.

                  I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
                  particularly low on the scale of people who think and communicate in
                  diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite often.) I know
                  that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly because I've
                  learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from habit. Still, a
                  couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.

                  So an XP team might want to push in the direction of communicating more
                  with code and less with modeling, and they should certainly learn to let
                  the code direct the design. But I'd not worry if early on folks did some
                  modeling. Deal with it as it happens, I guess.

                  You're doing fine, keep doing, that's my advice.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  Do only what is necessary. Keep only what you need.
                • Ron Jeffries
                  ... I don t know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard works better, and it can be left in view all through the iteration. Ron Jeffries
                  Message 8 of 27 , Mar 2 3:41 AM
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                    On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                    >> I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want to use some
                    >> cards to write down notes about things they think need to be done. For
                    >> anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why I'd need task
                    >> cards.
                    >>
                    >> Frankly I wish I had never written about them.

                    > But Kent mentions them as a key part of iteration planning, or has it moved
                    > on much more since he wrote the book?

                    I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard works better,
                    and it can be left in view all through the iteration.

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    The work teaches us. -- Richard Gabriel
                  • Kiel Hodges <kielhodges@mindspring.com>
                    ... But perhaps it ... and when we ... to speak of, ... to trust the ... communicate in ... often.) I know ... because I ve ... Still, a ... communicating more
                    Message 9 of 27 , Mar 2 7:34 AM
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                      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                      <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I'd not say "failed". I'd save that for when they stone you.
                      But perhaps it
                      > wasn't ideal. We can't reach instantly from where we are to XP,
                      and when we
                      > have a modeling vocabulary to share ideas in, and no code base
                      to speak of,
                      > it's natural to work in pictures or CRC. We want to learn not
                      to trust the
                      > pictures.
                      >
                      > I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
                      > particularly low on the scale of people who think and
                      communicate in
                      > diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite
                      often.) I know
                      > that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly
                      because I've
                      > learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from habit.
                      Still, a
                      > couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.
                      >
                      > So an XP team might want to push in the direction of
                      communicating more
                      > with code and less with modeling, and they should certainly
                      learn to let
                      > the code direct the design. But I'd not worry if early on folks
                      did some
                      > modeling. Deal with it as it happens, I guess.
                      >
                      > You're doing fine, keep doing, that's my advice.

                      Nick, if anything, just try to get people to /invest/ less in
                      diagrams. Encourage them to just /scribble/ them on a whiteboard
                      or sheet of paper and not put them into any sort of permanent
                      repository. Be alert to situations where a previously blessed
                      design is holding the code back inappropriately.

                      Also, encourage people to do any diagrams only in the context of
                      stories. Discourage philosophical discussions about class
                      diagrams that aren't anchored in the context of specific user
                      defined functionality.

                      Personally, I'm pretty anchored in code, but I still find it
                      useful to draw some pictures to communicate with others. On my
                      last team, we occasionally drew some diagrams on the whiteboard
                      and left them for the duration of an entire iteration. Of course,
                      when we changed the design in the course of the iteration, we
                      promptly erased any invalidated diagram.

                      Kiel Hodges
                      SelfSo Software
                    • Kiel Hodges <kielhodges@mindspring.com>
                      ... to use some ... done. For ... I d need task ... or has it moved ... works better, ... We began a project a couple of years ago using cards. After coming
                      Message 10 of 27 , Mar 2 7:51 AM
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                        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                        <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
                        > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                        >
                        > >> I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want
                        to use some
                        > >> cards to write down notes about things they think need to be
                        done. For
                        > >> anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why
                        I'd need task
                        > >> cards.
                        > >>
                        > >> Frankly I wish I had never written about them.
                        >
                        > > But Kent mentions them as a key part of iteration planning,
                        or has it moved
                        > > on much more since he wrote the book?
                        >
                        > I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard
                        works better,
                        > and it can be left in view all through the iteration.

                        We began a project a couple of years ago using cards. After
                        coming far too close to the end of an iteration with a lot of
                        complete tasks and no complete stories, we made our first process
                        adjustments.

                        The most visible (pun intended) was replacing cards with an
                        "information radiating" whiteboard. We selected one of many
                        whiteboards based on its location and put tape on it form a grid
                        of many lines. We listed each story followed by its tasks with a
                        box at the end of the line to show its status and who had the
                        task.

                        With the whiteboard, anyone in the company could tell at a glance
                        where the iteration was. More to the point, it was hard not to
                        notice when things were not coming together.

                        Kiel Hodges
                        SelfSo Software
                      • Nick Robinson
                        ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                        Message 11 of 27 , Mar 2 9:28 AM
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                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                          > Sent: 02 March 2003 11:24
                          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                          >
                          >
                          > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                          >
                          > >> Well, maybe I'm not understanding you. To me, one essential
                          > part of a user
                          > >> story is the test. In a very real sense, there /is/ no user story until
                          > >> there is a test. But I may be getting ahead of your story: the specific
                          > >> acceptance tests could start to take shape (and IMO should) in the next
                          > >> step:
                          > >>
                          >
                          > > hhmmm...I think I read somewhere that the customer would work
                          > on the tests
                          > > for the stories but they wouldnt be produced at the same time of the
                          > > stories? I doubt you have missed the point here...
                          >
                          > Certainly they need not be produced. But a wise and experienced customer
                          > probably has "how will I test that?" in mind when writing each story. And
                          > of course CATs are among the most frequently missed XP practices. So if I
                          > were to practice writing stories with folks, I'd put that notion in early.
                          >
                          > When discussing stories in planning, "How will we test this?"
                          > again becomes
                          > a great question to focus attention on making things concrete.

                          I can see that now actually. In the last workshop testing wasnt even
                          mentioned...a fundamental flaw I think.

                          >
                          > Ron Jeffries
                          > www.XProgramming.com
                          > Sigs are like I Ching or Tarot. They don't mean anything,
                          > but sometimes if you think about them you'll get a useful idea.
                          >
                          >
                          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                          >
                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                          >
                          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >

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                        • Nick Robinson
                          ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                          Message 12 of 27 , Mar 2 9:38 AM
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                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                            > Sent: 02 March 2003 11:36
                            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                            >
                            >
                            > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                            >
                            > >> >> > 4. Oh yes, three others will do some domain modelling and the
                            > >> >> other pair who
                            > >> >> > are modelling will get together with them before the next
                            > workshop to
                            > >> >> > normalize their ideas.
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> I don't recall this being a recommended XP step. And I'd be thinking
                            > >> >> "together".
                            > >>
                            > >> > Ok I agree actually.
                            > >>
                            > >> I really think this might be a fairly major bug in the exercise. On
                            > >> something as small as this, I might allow ten minutes of
                            > "domain modeling"
                            > >> discussion during planning, with some CRC cards. These folks may spend
                            > >> hours. An XP team, especially in a small exercise like this,
                            > would quickly
                            > >> move to code and let the modeling sort out with the aid of refactoring.
                            > >>
                            > >> But I'm just guessing -- I wasn't there to see what happened.
                            > I'd be alert
                            > >> next time for signs of too much commitment to the design. I
                            > might well say
                            > >> "Let's set this aside now, and start with simple code and
                            > >> refactoring. When
                            > >> we're done doing in in the XP way, let's compare what we come
                            > up with to
                            > >> these modeling ideas."
                            > >>
                            >
                            > > Admittedly when the workshop had ended and all types of
                            > modelling was being
                            > > banded about as people left, I felt that aspect had failed. I
                            > really didnt
                            > > want to do too much modelling at all. hhhmmmm.....I got an
                            > uneasy feeling
                            > > then and I get an even bigger one now.
                            >
                            > I'd not say "failed". I'd save that for when they stone you. But
                            > perhaps it
                            > wasn't ideal. We can't reach instantly from where we are to XP,
                            > and when we
                            > have a modeling vocabulary to share ideas in, and no code base to
                            > speak of,
                            > it's natural to work in pictures or CRC. We want to learn not to trust the
                            > pictures.
                            >

                            I would really like to introduce CRC to the group, because while its a
                            design process, I think over time people will realise that design took
                            place, but we didnt produce the vanilla diagrams expected of other
                            processes. I think when people start to practice a methodology, there
                            aspects that one doesnt "dig". You have to carry on though with the hope
                            that at sometime the penny will drop. Here I am talking more of the BDUF
                            methods btw. I get the feeling that some people produce a certain diagram
                            because they feel they ought too. I was forced to produce a wad of models
                            for management at my last clients, and though I had been reading about agile
                            methods, I still felt like I should create them. A change to the system
                            occured and I was asked to update the models. IT MUST BE DONE I was told.
                            I decided not to do it. Six months later nobody came to me and said "hey
                            Nick, you know model such and such is out of date?". That was my epiphany.

                            CRC helps people think of classes and objects from a different perspective
                            too - one thats not data centric which I like.

                            > I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
                            > particularly low on the scale of people who think and communicate in
                            > diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite often.) I know
                            > that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly because I've
                            > learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from habit. Still, a
                            > couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.

                            I dont know how you guys work, but I am thinking that there are different
                            contexts to which this is possible. If you run your own shop, then you have
                            the complete dictum as to what will and will not be produced. When
                            consulting at a client that hasnt moved over to XP or agile concepts, there
                            is that expectation that such things should be produced.

                            >
                            > So an XP team might want to push in the direction of communicating more
                            > with code and less with modeling, and they should certainly learn to let
                            > the code direct the design. But I'd not worry if early on folks did some
                            > modeling. Deal with it as it happens, I guess.

                            I think one of the negative side effects of being consumed by BDUF methods,
                            is that one has a polarized view of the code. Its the end product, its what
                            gets created by doing all of the modelling. I have heard people talk as if
                            the code was just the end product, and the core of its production is in the
                            models and effort that went into the design - not the code cutting. Behind
                            the meanings of those statements is the insidious brainwashing that makes us
                            feel that writing code is not designing. This was one such enlightenment I
                            felt when I found XP.

                            >
                            > You're doing fine, keep doing, that's my advice.
                            >

                            8-)

                            > Ron Jeffries
                            > www.XProgramming.com
                            > Do only what is necessary. Keep only what you need.
                            >
                            >
                            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                            >
                            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                            >
                            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >

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                          • Nick Robinson
                            ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                            Message 13 of 27 , Mar 2 9:39 AM
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                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                              > Sent: 02 March 2003 11:41
                              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                              >
                              >
                              > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                              >
                              > >> I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want to use some
                              > >> cards to write down notes about things they think need to be done. For
                              > >> anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why
                              > I'd need task
                              > >> cards.
                              > >>
                              > >> Frankly I wish I had never written about them.
                              >
                              > > But Kent mentions them as a key part of iteration planning, or
                              > has it moved
                              > > on much more since he wrote the book?
                              >
                              > I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard works better,
                              > and it can be left in view all through the iteration.
                              >

                              I guess that this is one of the "customizations" you can do once you are
                              confident with all the principles. I can probably see why you would go that
                              route, but for me I guess its best to stick with the task cards certainly
                              during this learning phase. I dont want to confuse the others either.

                              > Ron Jeffries
                              > www.XProgramming.com
                              > The work teaches us. -- Richard Gabriel
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                              >
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                              >
                              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                              >
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                              >

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                            • Ron Jeffries
                              ... Of course you should do as you see fit. When I teach XP Immersion classes with Bob Martin, there are no task cards. When Kent used to teach them with Bob
                              Message 14 of 27 , Mar 2 11:50 AM
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                                On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 12:39:01 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                                >> I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard works better,
                                >> and it can be left in view all through the iteration.
                                >>

                                > I guess that this is one of the "customizations" you can do once you are
                                > confident with all the principles. I can probably see why you would go that
                                > route, but for me I guess its best to stick with the task cards certainly
                                > during this learning phase. I dont want to confuse the others either.

                                Of course you should do as you see fit. When I teach XP Immersion classes
                                with Bob Martin, there are no task cards. When Kent used to teach them with
                                Bob and me, there were no task cards, now that I think of it.

                                In fact, I just looked briefly into Planning Extreme Programming. I didn't
                                find task cards in the index. Under Iteration Planning: I found "Write the
                                tasks on the whiteboard."

                                What part of Kent's writings are you referring to?

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                For me, XP ain't out there, it's in here. -- Bill Caputo
                              • Ron Jeffries
                                ... Sure. But documentation that is externally required is a story, gets planned and produced just like software. Not as a side effect: at least as measurable
                                Message 15 of 27 , Mar 2 11:51 AM
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                                  On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 12:38:59 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                                  >> I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
                                  >> particularly low on the scale of people who think and communicate in
                                  >> diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite often.) I know
                                  >> that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly because I've
                                  >> learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from habit. Still, a
                                  >> couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.

                                  > I dont know how you guys work, but I am thinking that there are different
                                  > contexts to which this is possible. If you run your own shop, then you have
                                  > the complete dictum as to what will and will not be produced. When
                                  > consulting at a client that hasnt moved over to XP or agile concepts, there
                                  > is that expectation that such things should be produced.

                                  Sure. But documentation that is externally required is a story, gets
                                  planned and produced just like software. Not as a side effect: at least as
                                  measurable tasks (on the whiteboard ;->) but preferably as separate stories
                                  with costs.

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming.com
                                  Comments lie. Code doesn't.
                                • Nick Robinson
                                  ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Mar 2 12:04 PM
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                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Kiel Hodges <kielhodges@...>
                                    > [mailto:kielhodges@...]
                                    > Sent: 02 March 2003 15:34
                                    > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                                    > <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I'd not say "failed". I'd save that for when they stone you.
                                    > But perhaps it
                                    > > wasn't ideal. We can't reach instantly from where we are to XP,
                                    > and when we
                                    > > have a modeling vocabulary to share ideas in, and no code base
                                    > to speak of,
                                    > > it's natural to work in pictures or CRC. We want to learn not
                                    > to trust the
                                    > > pictures.
                                    > >
                                    > > I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
                                    > > particularly low on the scale of people who think and
                                    > communicate in
                                    > > diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite
                                    > often.) I know
                                    > > that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly
                                    > because I've
                                    > > learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from habit.
                                    > Still, a
                                    > > couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.
                                    > >
                                    > > So an XP team might want to push in the direction of
                                    > communicating more
                                    > > with code and less with modeling, and they should certainly
                                    > learn to let
                                    > > the code direct the design. But I'd not worry if early on folks
                                    > did some
                                    > > modeling. Deal with it as it happens, I guess.
                                    > >
                                    > > You're doing fine, keep doing, that's my advice.
                                    >
                                    > Nick, if anything, just try to get people to /invest/ less in
                                    > diagrams. Encourage them to just /scribble/ them on a whiteboard
                                    > or sheet of paper and not put them into any sort of permanent
                                    > repository. Be alert to situations where a previously blessed
                                    > design is holding the code back inappropriately.
                                    >
                                    > Also, encourage people to do any diagrams only in the context of
                                    > stories. Discourage philosophical discussions about class
                                    > diagrams that aren't anchored in the context of specific user
                                    > defined functionality.
                                    >
                                    This is something I wish to address at the next workshop. The group were
                                    keen to move towards code cutting, and normally I would be ok with that.
                                    However I feel that the planning aspect is an essential - certainly one
                                    should grasp what goes on in planning, and also I need to address the
                                    modelling issue. I like the idea of using just a whiteboard to gather
                                    ideas, but not going away producing wads of models.

                                    > Personally, I'm pretty anchored in code, but I still find it
                                    > useful to draw some pictures to communicate with others. On my
                                    > last team, we occasionally drew some diagrams on the whiteboard
                                    > and left them for the duration of an entire iteration. Of course,
                                    > when we changed the design in the course of the iteration, we
                                    > promptly erased any invalidated diagram.
                                    >
                                    > Kiel Hodges
                                    > SelfSo Software
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                    >
                                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
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                                  • Nick Robinson
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                                    Message 17 of 27 , Mar 2 12:04 PM
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                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Kiel Hodges <kielhodges@...>
                                      > [mailto:kielhodges@...]
                                      > Sent: 02 March 2003 15:51
                                      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
                                      > <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
                                      > > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 4:04:41 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >> I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want
                                      > to use some
                                      > > >> cards to write down notes about things they think need to be
                                      > done. For
                                      > > >> anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why
                                      > I'd need task
                                      > > >> cards.
                                      > > >>
                                      > > >> Frankly I wish I had never written about them.
                                      > >
                                      > > > But Kent mentions them as a key part of iteration planning,
                                      > or has it moved
                                      > > > on much more since he wrote the book?
                                      > >
                                      > > I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard
                                      > works better,
                                      > > and it can be left in view all through the iteration.
                                      >
                                      > We began a project a couple of years ago using cards. After
                                      > coming far too close to the end of an iteration with a lot of
                                      > complete tasks and no complete stories, we made our first process
                                      > adjustments.
                                      >
                                      > The most visible (pun intended) was replacing cards with an
                                      > "information radiating" whiteboard. We selected one of many
                                      > whiteboards based on its location and put tape on it form a grid
                                      > of many lines. We listed each story followed by its tasks with a
                                      > box at the end of the line to show its status and who had the
                                      > task.
                                      >
                                      > With the whiteboard, anyone in the company could tell at a glance
                                      > where the iteration was. More to the point, it was hard not to
                                      > notice when things were not coming together.
                                      >

                                      Interesting...I like that idea. Keeping the status visible to all
                                      throughout the iteration. Recently however, a manager asked us why the
                                      whiteboard still had the same diagram on it from the week before. He asked
                                      strongly "shouldnt this be in a document somewhere if its that
                                      important?"....eh hum.

                                      > Kiel Hodges
                                      > SelfSo Software
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                      >
                                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                      >
                                      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                      >
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                                      >

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                                    • Ron Jeffries
                                      ... Right now, this is so important that we want it in front of us. A week from now we may want something else. or ... Actually no one has been looking at
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Mar 2 12:17 PM
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                                        On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 3:04:44 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                                        > Interesting...I like that idea. Keeping the status visible to all
                                        > throughout the iteration. Recently however, a manager asked us why the
                                        > whiteboard still had the same diagram on it from the week before. He asked
                                        > strongly "shouldnt this be in a document somewhere if its that
                                        > important?"....eh hum.

                                        "Right now, this is so important that we want it in front of us. A week
                                        from now we may want something else."

                                        or ...

                                        "Actually no one has been looking at it. We just haven't needed the
                                        whiteboard space."

                                        or something like that.

                                        And of course, this is a great chance to get the manager to spring for a
                                        digital camera for the group, and a copy of "Whiteboard Photo"
                                        (http://www.websterboards.com/products/wbp.html). (Formerly www.pixid.com )
                                        I have tried the program and it works as advertised. I am not associated
                                        with the company in any way, except that I met the brother of the founder
                                        at a Consultants' Retreat.

                                        "That way, boss, we can keep the document files completely up to date on
                                        every change, without wasting your time and money with slow, expensive
                                        drawing tools."

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                        Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Picasso
                                      • Nick Robinson
                                        ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Mar 2 12:37 PM
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                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                          > Sent: 02 March 2003 19:50
                                          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 12:39:01 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >> I don't know if he uses them or not. For me, the whiteboard
                                          > works better,
                                          > >> and it can be left in view all through the iteration.
                                          > >>
                                          >
                                          > > I guess that this is one of the "customizations" you can do once you are
                                          > > confident with all the principles. I can probably see why you
                                          > would go that
                                          > > route, but for me I guess its best to stick with the task cards
                                          > certainly
                                          > > during this learning phase. I dont want to confuse the others either.
                                          >
                                          > Of course you should do as you see fit. When I teach XP Immersion classes
                                          > with Bob Martin, there are no task cards. When Kent used to teach
                                          > them with
                                          > Bob and me, there were no task cards, now that I think of it.
                                          >
                                          > In fact, I just looked briefly into Planning Extreme Programming. I didn't
                                          > find task cards in the index. Under Iteration Planning: I found "Write the
                                          > tasks on the whiteboard."
                                          >
                                          > What part of Kent's writings are you referring to?

                                          The seminal Extreme Programming Explained. Page 92, mentioned in the
                                          Iteration Planning section. I can see why the whiteboard helps, though what
                                          happens if someone inadvertently cleanses the whiteboard, like an
                                          over-zealous cleaning lady? ;-)

                                          >
                                          > Ron Jeffries
                                          > www.XProgramming.com
                                          > For me, XP ain't out there, it's in here. -- Bill Caputo
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                          >
                                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                          >
                                          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >

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                                        • Nick Robinson
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                                          Message 20 of 27 , Mar 2 12:37 PM
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                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                            > Sent: 02 March 2003 19:52
                                            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 12:38:59 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >> I have often, over the past few years, wondered whether Kent is
                                            > >> particularly low on the scale of people who think and communicate in
                                            > >> diagram-type pictures. (He uses metaphoric pictures quite
                                            > often.) I know
                                            > >> that I used to use diagrams much more than I do now, partly
                                            > because I've
                                            > >> learned to use code better for that purpose, partly from
                                            > habit. Still, a
                                            > >> couple of boxes and arrows can communicate a lot.
                                            >
                                            > > I dont know how you guys work, but I am thinking that there are
                                            > different
                                            > > contexts to which this is possible. If you run your own shop,
                                            > then you have
                                            > > the complete dictum as to what will and will not be produced. When
                                            > > consulting at a client that hasnt moved over to XP or agile
                                            > concepts, there
                                            > > is that expectation that such things should be produced.
                                            >
                                            > Sure. But documentation that is externally required is a story, gets
                                            > planned and produced just like software. Not as a side effect: at least as
                                            > measurable tasks (on the whiteboard ;->) but preferably as
                                            > separate stories
                                            > with costs.
                                            >

                                            8-) I see....and yes they arent side-effects, where as in the other
                                            situation mentioned some of the diagrams are definitely side effects. The
                                            value they offer is always subjective.

                                            > Ron Jeffries
                                            > www.XProgramming.com
                                            > Comments lie. Code doesn't.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                            >
                                            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                            >
                                            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            >

                                            __________________________________________________
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                                          • Nick Robinson
                                            ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Mar 2 12:40 PM
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                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                              > Sent: 02 March 2003 20:18
                                              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Sunday, March 2, 2003, at 3:04:44 PM, Nick Robinson wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Interesting...I like that idea. Keeping the status visible to all
                                              > > throughout the iteration. Recently however, a manager asked us why the
                                              > > whiteboard still had the same diagram on it from the week
                                              > before. He asked
                                              > > strongly "shouldnt this be in a document somewhere if its that
                                              > > important?"....eh hum.
                                              >
                                              > "Right now, this is so important that we want it in front of us. A week
                                              > from now we may want something else."
                                              >
                                              > or ...
                                              >
                                              > "Actually no one has been looking at it. We just haven't needed the
                                              > whiteboard space."
                                              >
                                              > or something like that.
                                              >
                                              > And of course, this is a great chance to get the manager to spring for a
                                              > digital camera for the group, and a copy of "Whiteboard Photo"
                                              > (http://www.websterboards.com/products/wbp.html). (Formerly
                                              > www.pixid.com )
                                              > I have tried the program and it works as advertised. I am not associated
                                              > with the company in any way, except that I met the brother of the founder
                                              > at a Consultants' Retreat.
                                              >
                                              > "That way, boss, we can keep the document files completely up to date on
                                              > every change, without wasting your time and money with slow, expensive
                                              > drawing tools."
                                              >

                                              ;-) We have a camera actually, and all the boards are in souresafe. I will
                                              take a look at the product you recommend. At the moment we have so much
                                              whiteboard, anyone would think we secretly had shares in Whiteboard
                                              Corp....thats one reason for not rubbing the damned thing off.

                                              > Ron Jeffries
                                              > www.XProgramming.com
                                              > Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Picasso
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                              >
                                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                              >
                                              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                              >
                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              >

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                                            • George Dinwiddie
                                              ... I ll second the recommendation for Whiteboard Photo. I got it on Ron s recommendation (with my own $), and it really works. Download the trial version
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Mar 2 6:48 PM
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                                                Nick Robinson wrote:
                                                >>From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                                >>And of course, this is a great chance to get the manager to spring for a
                                                >>digital camera for the group, and a copy of "Whiteboard Photo"
                                                >>(http://www.websterboards.com/products/wbp.html). (Formerly
                                                >>www.pixid.com )
                                                >>I have tried the program and it works as advertised. I am not associated
                                                >>with the company in any way, except that I met the brother of the founder
                                                >>at a Consultants' Retreat.
                                                >>
                                                >>"That way, boss, we can keep the document files completely up to date on
                                                >>every change, without wasting your time and money with slow, expensive
                                                >>drawing tools."
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ;-) We have a camera actually, and all the boards are in souresafe. I will
                                                > take a look at the product you recommend. At the moment we have so much
                                                > whiteboard, anyone would think we secretly had shares in Whiteboard
                                                > Corp....thats one reason for not rubbing the damned thing off.

                                                I'll second the recommendation for "Whiteboard Photo." I got it on
                                                Ron's recommendation (with my own $), and it really works. Download the
                                                trial version (http://www.websterboards.com/products/wbp_trial_ver.html)
                                                and check it out for yourself. I don't know if they still offer it, but
                                                when I got it, the trial version had an offer for a discount in the
                                                watermark it put on the output.

                                                - George

                                                --
                                                -------------------------
                                                George Dinwiddie
                                                agile programmer for hire
                                                Baltimore/Washington area
                                                gdinwiddie@...
                                                -------------------------
                                              • William Pietri
                                                ... Then it will be a fine opportunity to demonstrate that the whiteboard works for you, rather then the other way around. William -- brains for sale:
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Mar 3 12:37 AM
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                                                  On Sun, 2003-03-02 at 12:37, Nick Robinson wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > The seminal Extreme Programming Explained. Page 92, mentioned in the
                                                  > Iteration Planning section. I can see why the whiteboard helps, though what
                                                  > happens if someone inadvertently cleanses the whiteboard, like an
                                                  > over-zealous cleaning lady? ;-)

                                                  Then it will be a fine opportunity to demonstrate that the whiteboard
                                                  works for you, rather then the other way around.


                                                  William


                                                  --
                                                  brains for sale: http://scissor.com/
                                                • Nick Robinson
                                                  I was thinking of this when I woke up and another question arose...-----Original Message----- From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@acm.org] Sent: 01
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Mar 3 12:38 AM
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                                                    I was thinking of this when I woke up and another question arose...

                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                                    > Sent: 01 March 2003 11:29
                                                    > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Subject: Re: [XP] If you have time, could you comment on this...
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > On Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 5:20:57 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                                                    <<CUT>>

                                                    > > One other question. In the first planning phase, were the customer sits
                                                    > > down with the team to walk through the stories, would the
                                                    > development team
                                                    > > break the stories into task cards in the same meeting?
                                                    >
                                                    > I don't use task cards any more, ever. The team might want to use some
                                                    > cards to write down notes about things they think need to be done. For
                                                    > anything that can be done in an evening, I'm not seeing why I'd need task
                                                    > cards.
                                                    >
                                                    > Frankly I wish I had never written about them.
                                                    >

                                                    One question. In the above message you are basically saying if you can
                                                    write the task in an evenings work then why bother putting it onto a task
                                                    card - correct me if I misunderstood, as it will nullify the rest of
                                                    this...Arent task cards meant to be chunks of work of a couple of days and
                                                    no more, and not just an evenings worth?

                                                    I am begining to feel that the communication aspect of XP would be the
                                                    encompassing safety net, if thats the right term. Because an XP team has
                                                    such good communication, and all of the key principles are practised and
                                                    practised well, some reasons for creating things become less important?

                                                    Thanks,

                                                    Nick.

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                                                  • Ron Jeffries
                                                    ... No. I /never/ use task cards. I would not start a team with task cards. I think task cards were a phase that C3 went through. C3 stopped using them. I ve
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Mar 3 2:31 AM
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                                                      On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 3:38:24 AM, Nick Robinson wrote:

                                                      > One question. In the above message you are basically saying if you can
                                                      > write the task in an evenings work then why bother putting it onto a task
                                                      > card - correct me if I misunderstood, as it will nullify the rest of
                                                      > this...Arent task cards meant to be chunks of work of a couple of days and
                                                      > no more, and not just an evenings worth?

                                                      No. I /never/ use task cards. I would not start a team with task cards. I
                                                      think task cards were a phase that C3 went through. C3 stopped using them.
                                                      I've stopped recommending them, and afaik so has Kent.

                                                      That's not to say that I wouldn't write things on a card for myself, or
                                                      that other developers could not. That's not the "task card" idea that I'm
                                                      talking about. I'm talking about the practice of breaking stories down and
                                                      writing up task cards for everything foreseen.

                                                      That's not to say that you can't do them. Certainly they are a local
                                                      option. The thing is this. If they're to be worth doing, as you allude to,
                                                      they must be large. But if they are large, they are almost certainly too
                                                      speculative. They lock the team into a set of expectations that will not
                                                      want to be met when the time comes.

                                                      In short -- they're not agile enough for my taste.

                                                      But by all means, try them if you want to, it's not like they're deadly or
                                                      anything.

                                                      > I am begining to feel that the communication aspect of XP would be the
                                                      > encompassing safety net, if thats the right term. Because an XP team has
                                                      > such good communication, and all of the key principles are practised and
                                                      > practised well, some reasons for creating things become less important?

                                                      Yes, communication is certainly a large part of it. And feedback: smaller
                                                      tasks provide feedback better. And simplicity: life is simpler without
                                                      them.

                                                      But by all means, if you don't have a permanent whiteboard or such, make
                                                      cards to record the brainstorming. Try using small cards, so you won't
                                                      write much on them, perhaps.

                                                      Ron Jeffries
                                                      www.XProgramming.com
                                                      Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get. -- Richard Gabriel
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