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RE: [XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor

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  • Nick Robinson
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    Message 1 of 41 , Mar 1, 2003
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      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Kiel Hodges <kielhodges@...>
      > [mailto:kielhodges@...]
      > Sent: 28 February 2003 18:45
      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor
      >
      >
      > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Robinson"
      > <nicholasrobinson@y...> wrote:
      > > Kiel, thats very useful. I am sure when we discussed this, we
      > kinda thought
      > > that that is how it must happen in XP, given all the principles.
      > > Now, when i think more about the original question I need to
      > dig deep for
      > > asking why would one want a framework. One reason is that
      > there are
      > > different ways for doing DB persistence, and the team lead may
      > wish to have
      > > it done one way and everybody else uses the pattern. That way,
      > if there are
      > > weak people in the team (in relation to DB persistence say),
      > then its
      > > covered. Its consistent. If you have strong minds with
      > different ideas for
      > > implementation (lets say one wishes to ignore the DB and use a
      > pure domain
      > > model while another wishes to use recordsets for example), then
      > creating a
      > > defacto framework is one way of saying, "This is how you do DB
      > persistence".
      >
      > Doing it in two completely different ways is not good design,
      > period.
      >

      The above rationale isnt mine by the way! I must admit I have worked on a
      project were the DB access has been different, depending on whose code you
      looked at. I am quite aware of the implications of this...

      > The team should be communicating through pairing and stand-up
      > meetings and just talking. It should be apparent if things are
      > not being done in the "ordained" way, however that is decided.
      >

      And the team-code ownership aspect will also expose non-conformant
      mechanisms for performing certain programmatical tasks within the system.

      > > Thanks for your reply - its a good answer. One question. If
      > two
      > > programmers start work on stories but both need to persist
      > their objects,
      > > how do you deal with that in XP? So I want to build the story
      > that requires
      > > wizzbang and you are doing foobar. Both of us need the facade
      > code you
      > > mentioned. This is no different to normal world of
      > development, but I am
      > > curious on how XP would deal with this. Maybe there is
      > something it
      > > advises.
      >
      > Again, through good communication it should be apparent that two
      > people need the same thing. The way most teams work, this would
      > come up during iteration planning.
      >
      > A straightforward approach would be for those two people to pair
      > up to do the first one. They could do the second one, too, but it
      > might be better for one of them to then pair up with another team
      > member to spread the knowledge around and add even more
      > perspective.
      >
      > Alternatively, it could just be decided than one task will be
      > done before the other. (Presumably, these stories have been
      > broken down into tasks.)
      >
      > A third approach is for the two developers to get together
      > briefly and sync up on what the interface would look like. Then
      > they proceed making adjustments as appropriate and talking more
      > when needed. The second one to commit changes to the version
      > control system is responsible for making sure it all adds up. Of
      > course, he enlists the help of the first if necessary.
      >
      > The key is proceeding in small increments. That way, whichever
      > approach is taken, things will go pretty smoothly and with
      > minimal delay.

      Ok I understand how this should be explained now. I understand what
      everybody is saying, which when you step back for a second, is common sense.
      I can understand were the questions come from. Internally when we embark on
      a journey of learning and re-education, during times of difficulty we either
      conciously or sub-conciously go back to what we know, returning to our
      comfort zones. I guess this question came from someone sitting on a warm
      cosy chair in their comfort zone. Small steps....

      Thanks Kiel.
      >
      > Kiel Hodges
      > SelfSo Software
      >
      >
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    • Nick Robinson
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      Message 41 of 41 , Mar 2, 2003
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        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: George Dinwiddie [mailto:programminglists@...]
        > Sent: 01 March 2003 16:29
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Nick Robinson wrote:
        > >
        > >>Why would you create a class graph? Is the class graph just a
        > >>representation of the customer's experience and knowledge in the
        > >>domain? Why would the programmers want this on paper? Why would the
        > >>customer pay for it? Why not just ask the customer how their domain
        > >>works? How does having a class graph give you information about an
        > >>estimate?
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > > Why would the customer want to pay for a class graph? Thats not
        > what I am
        > > alluding too. Forget XP a second - remember we are doing these
        > workshops as
        > > we dont know XP, and come from an RUP/UP background (or dare I
        > admit it an
        > > ICONIX background for some). These artefacts are what we have typically
        > > produced, and therefore thats why they are being mentioned in
        > the workshops.
        >
        > The question is "for whom are these artifacts produced and what need to
        > they have for them?" "Because we've always done it that way" is a weak
        > reason. You need to ask "why" again (and perhaps again, again) to
        > uncover the underlying reason, if there is one.

        I think you hit the nail on the head though. The "Because we've always done
        it that way" is a subconcious manifestation that affects the thinking when
        in a common situation were experience has been gained. In XP it is obvious
        such questions need to be answered, again and again to reinforce the point.
        In RUP certain documents are produced through the workflow, as they add
        value to the process and the team working that process (at least thats the
        idea though I have seen this fail).

        >
        > - George
        >
        > --
        > -------------------------
        > George Dinwiddie
        > agile programmer for hire
        > Baltimore/Washington area
        > gdinwiddie@...
        > -------------------------
        >
        >
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