Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor

Expand Messages
  • Nick Robinson
    ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
    Message 1 of 41 , Mar 1, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: banshee858 <cnett858@...> [mailto:cnett858@...]
      > Sent: 28 February 2003 18:45
      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor
      >
      >
      > >
      > > Domain Model - model of the domain concepts. Then end result of
      > producing a
      > > domain model is that you have a conceptual, class graph of the
      > concepts in
      > > the problem domain.
      >
      > Why would you create a class graph? Is the class graph just a
      > representation of the customer's experience and knowledge in the
      > domain? Why would the programmers want this on paper? Why would the
      > customer pay for it? Why not just ask the customer how their domain
      > works? How does having a class graph give you information about an
      > estimate?
      >

      Why would the customer want to pay for a class graph? Thats not what I am
      alluding too. Forget XP a second - remember we are doing these workshops as
      we dont know XP, and come from an RUP/UP background (or dare I admit it an
      ICONIX background for some). These artefacts are what we have typically
      produced, and therefore thats why they are being mentioned in the workshops.
      My impression is that what you are alluding too is something we will realise
      as we develop more experiential knowledge of XP.

      > > High level sequence diagram is something that allows
      > > the analyst to get his thoguhts together when considering the
      > system at an
      > > informal, conceptual level. Maybe an example would be a sequence
      > diagram
      > > that shows a user indicating a request, the system receives the
      > request and
      > > sends another request to an external system. Three messages. High
      > level.
      >
      > Why do you need to produce this thing before you can provide an
      > estimate? Why not talk about it with the customer and from their
      > description, provide an estimate? In the example above, I am sure
      > that 5 or 6 bright people could figure out that three messages are
      > sent.
      >

      Ofcourse, the above example was meant to be indicative of the reason, not an
      explanation of the real problem. I understand what you are saying. If we
      are bright enough we should not need to worry about such things. I agree.
      The workshop team has a wide range of skillsets and experiences, and some of
      the stronger convictions come through more predominantly than others. As we
      are learning XP, not practising it, non-XP'isms are being presented.

      > >
      > > I think, if one considers an non-xp project, some technical
      > questions will
      > > be raised. How will we log exceptions? How will we raise
      > notifications? How
      > > will we persist consistently. How will we navigate in a web
      > application?
      > > yada yada yar. In such projects, someone would start to work on
      > one aspect,
      > > some on another. The forces are different. I am begining to see
      > the
      > > differences now, and in XP if a frameowrk is needed, it will be
      > built. If
      > > it isnt needed, it will not get built. If it doesnt get built,
      > nobody
      > > epxended anything that didnt add value.
      > >
      > > I am trying to recall the conversation with the guy who mentioned
      > frameworks
      > > in XP at the workshop. I believe he made a good point. Hes a
      > bright chap,
      > > and knows his stuff. Hes working wihtin a large project, and early
      > on
      > > realised he had a number of pices of development he needed to do
      > that could
      > > benefit from a framework. If he spent some time building the
      > framework,
      > > then he would be able to add in all the pieces of development with
      > ease and
      > > elegance. Knowing that further in time some more development
      > pieces will
      > > definitely come along, he built this framework to ease that burden
      > and
      > > provide an extendible solution. It works and it works well.
      > >
      >
      > Yes, very good. Use the knowledge and experience of all your people
      > to help flush out the problem and identify where the program might
      > grow. Remember with simple design and unit tests, adding a framework
      > can be done at a later time in the project.
      >
      > As how to estimate the framework or adding the framework into each
      > story, I would suggest do not. First, estimate how long it takes to
      > make each component standing independent from a framework. Then male
      > an estimate on how long it will take to integrate all of them into
      > framework on a card. Defer the card until later.
      >
      > If you delay the creation of the framework to a later time, then when
      > it is time to create this framework, you will know what it needs
      > since you will have identified where the independent components do
      > not fit well together. After some components are built, then you
      > reestimate integrating the components into a framework. At this
      > point, IMO, you can build a framework.
      >

      Ok I can see your rationale. I need to mull it over.

      Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.

      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
      >
      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >

      __________________________________________________
      Do you Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
      http://taxes.yahoo.com/
    • Nick Robinson
      ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
      Message 41 of 41 , Mar 2, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: George Dinwiddie [mailto:programminglists@...]
        > Sent: 01 March 2003 16:29
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Nick Robinson wrote:
        > >
        > >>Why would you create a class graph? Is the class graph just a
        > >>representation of the customer's experience and knowledge in the
        > >>domain? Why would the programmers want this on paper? Why would the
        > >>customer pay for it? Why not just ask the customer how their domain
        > >>works? How does having a class graph give you information about an
        > >>estimate?
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > > Why would the customer want to pay for a class graph? Thats not
        > what I am
        > > alluding too. Forget XP a second - remember we are doing these
        > workshops as
        > > we dont know XP, and come from an RUP/UP background (or dare I
        > admit it an
        > > ICONIX background for some). These artefacts are what we have typically
        > > produced, and therefore thats why they are being mentioned in
        > the workshops.
        >
        > The question is "for whom are these artifacts produced and what need to
        > they have for them?" "Because we've always done it that way" is a weak
        > reason. You need to ask "why" again (and perhaps again, again) to
        > uncover the underlying reason, if there is one.

        I think you hit the nail on the head though. The "Because we've always done
        it that way" is a subconcious manifestation that affects the thinking when
        in a common situation were experience has been gained. In XP it is obvious
        such questions need to be answered, again and again to reinforce the point.
        In RUP certain documents are produced through the workflow, as they add
        value to the process and the team working that process (at least thats the
        idea though I have seen this fail).

        >
        > - George
        >
        > --
        > -------------------------
        > George Dinwiddie
        > agile programmer for hire
        > Baltimore/Washington area
        > gdinwiddie@...
        > -------------------------
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >

        __________________________________________________
        Do you Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
        http://taxes.yahoo.com/
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.