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RE: [XP] Initial Planning and Metaphor

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  • Nick Robinson
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    Message 1 of 41 , Mar 1, 2003
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      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: William Pietri [mailto:william@...]
      > Sent: 28 February 2003 20:21
      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [XP] Initial Planning and Metaphor
      >
      >
      > On Fri, 2003-02-28 at 00:23, Nicholas Robinson wrote:
      > > Nobody felt confident until the following had been produced:
      > >
      > > 1. Domain models
      > > 2. Some high-level sequence diagrams
      >
      >
      > Regarding 1 and 2, if they need 'em to estimate, then let them produce
      > them on the whiteboard, right then. Forbid them to copy them down.
      >
      > If they need to think about the broader system for them to estimate,
      > then drawing diagrams is one good way to structure the thinking. But the
      > point of XP is to always be thinking; if they have copies of the
      > documents around, they will be tempted to let paper substitute for
      > future thought.

      Hhhm...I have to say that when the group decided to go away and do this
      process, I was feeling producing models was going the wrong way (certainly
      in Rose for later). The problem also was that by the end of the workshop
      the estimates hadnt been produced. I feel the group are eager to get down
      into the coding phase, and hence said they would do the design out of the
      wrokshop and come to the next workshop with the models. This should allow
      some first steps in coding next week. However, I fear the planning aspect
      will not have been fully addressed, and i think the planning in XP has some
      things to appreciate for those that have seen deadlines slip etc...I know I
      want to get a good handle on the planning.

      >
      > > 3. An appreciation of the architecture required
      >
      > Try breaking it down slowly for them. Remind them that in XP, you can
      > change what you want at any time, so they aren't allowed to do anything
      > that isn't needed at the moment. Then give them your very first story
      > card and say, "What architecture do you need for this?"
      >
      > Likely, they will give you a whole lot of unnecessary architecture,
      > stuff that relates to future stories. Challenge them on it. Make them
      > pare it down to the bare essentials. Then give them your second card and
      > say, "Ok, let's add this one." Go through the same process. Then tell
      > them, "Well, suppose instead I had added this other card." You should
      > get a third architecture.
      >

      Thanks William for that - I can see the process clearly. If we are only
      building what is necessary to support the stories that are being built, why
      think about an expansive architecture that might not be required. I can see
      that architecture in this manner will be the evolving child of the stories
      that invoke the change in its form. It is a lot different in that respect
      from a non-XP approach, so I can see why this is a bit of a hurdle.

      >
      > Also, help them understand that unlike in the non-XP world, they will
      > get the chance to change these estimates. Their first estimates are
      > almost certain to be wrong, and that's ok. If after four iterations they
      > are still wildly off, you have a problem, but for now, they shouldn't
      > sweat it much.
      >

      Thanks for that William!

      >
      > William
      >
      > --
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      >
      >
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    • Nick Robinson
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      Message 41 of 41 , Mar 2, 2003
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        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: George Dinwiddie [mailto:programminglists@...]
        > Sent: 01 March 2003 16:29
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Initial Planning and Metaphor
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Nick Robinson wrote:
        > >
        > >>Why would you create a class graph? Is the class graph just a
        > >>representation of the customer's experience and knowledge in the
        > >>domain? Why would the programmers want this on paper? Why would the
        > >>customer pay for it? Why not just ask the customer how their domain
        > >>works? How does having a class graph give you information about an
        > >>estimate?
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > > Why would the customer want to pay for a class graph? Thats not
        > what I am
        > > alluding too. Forget XP a second - remember we are doing these
        > workshops as
        > > we dont know XP, and come from an RUP/UP background (or dare I
        > admit it an
        > > ICONIX background for some). These artefacts are what we have typically
        > > produced, and therefore thats why they are being mentioned in
        > the workshops.
        >
        > The question is "for whom are these artifacts produced and what need to
        > they have for them?" "Because we've always done it that way" is a weak
        > reason. You need to ask "why" again (and perhaps again, again) to
        > uncover the underlying reason, if there is one.

        I think you hit the nail on the head though. The "Because we've always done
        it that way" is a subconcious manifestation that affects the thinking when
        in a common situation were experience has been gained. In XP it is obvious
        such questions need to be answered, again and again to reinforce the point.
        In RUP certain documents are produced through the workflow, as they add
        value to the process and the team working that process (at least thats the
        idea though I have seen this fail).

        >
        > - George
        >
        > --
        > -------------------------
        > George Dinwiddie
        > agile programmer for hire
        > Baltimore/Washington area
        > gdinwiddie@...
        > -------------------------
        >
        >
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