Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XP] SCM

Expand Messages
  • Marko Gargenta
    I personally use CVS for source control. What is your opinion on CVS s optimistic locking versus systems such as MS VisualSafe? Marko Gargenta
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      I personally use CVS for source control.

      What is your opinion on CVS's optimistic locking versus systems such as MS
      VisualSafe?

      Marko Gargenta
    • Eric Rizzo
      ... Just wanted to second what KB said. I am a veteran VAJ user and just got off a project where I was doubling as team repository administrator. The hours
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        Kent Beck wrote:
        >
        > "Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM?"
        >
        > Yes. It's fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE. Might you ever lose a
        > day tracking down problems with external SCM? If yes, put a crowbar in your
        > wallet.

        Just wanted to second what KB said. I am a veteran VAJ user and just got off a
        project where I was doubling as team repository administrator. The hours we
        spent trying to get VAJ and PVCS to cooperate (basically getting PVCS to behave
        like a good little SCCI implementor that it is not) cost many times more than
        $3000 (like an order of magnitude more!). The problem is that you are trying
        to mix a repository based storage/CM paradigm with a file-based one; oil and
        water have a better chance of blending smoothly, IMO.
        I qualify this by saying that PVCS is probably the worst example to try the
        integration with; we've got ClearCase set up with VAJ now and it was a lot
        easier than PVCS (haven't really used ClearCase from within VAJ on a regular
        basis yet), and I've also heard success stories with CVS.

        My $0.02 worth of experience,
        Eric
        --
        Eric Nicholas Rizzo
        eric.rizzo@...
        The Technical Resource Connection, Inc. Perot Systems
        http://www.trcinc.com
        ---------------------------------------------------------------
        "A man talking sense to himself is no more insane than
        a man talking nonsense not to himself...or just as insane."
        -Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
      • Kent Quirk
        ... (I m told that Visual SourceSafe is also capable of using, as you put it, an optimistic file locking model. But I ve never met anyone who uses it that
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          Marko Gargenta wrote:
          >
          > I personally use CVS for source control.
          >
          > What is your opinion on CVS's optimistic locking versus systems such as MS
          > VisualSafe?

          (I'm told that Visual SourceSafe is also capable of using, as you put
          it, an "optimistic" file locking model. But I've never met anyone who
          uses it that way.)

          In any case, I am a total convert - maybe even a religious fanatic - for
          an optimistic source management system. For those who don't know, with
          this kind of model, instead of "checking out" and owning a file until
          you're done with it and check it back in, everyone has a full copy of
          the whole source tree. You edit whatever you want. When you're done, you
          commit your changes to the database.

          CVS does a 3-way compare of the version you checked out, the version
          that's current, and the one you've modified, and figures out where the
          changes are. If two developers modified different sections of the file,
          CVS simply merges both sets. If they modified the same regions, it puts
          in code from BOTH versions and flags the conflict with uncompilable
          marker text. You can hand-merge it.

          After three years of using CVS, I'm amazed at how well it does on the
          merge. Only once that I can recall, when we created a branch and waited
          too long to merge it back, did it have trouble identifying the changes.

          I would never want to use a file locking reservations system again.
          Especially if I'm doing XP.

          Kent


          --
          -----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Kent Quirk | CogniToy: Intelligent toys...
          Game Designer | for intelligent minds.
          kent_quirk@... | http://www.cognitoy.com/
          _____________________________|_________________________________________
        • Steve Freeman
          From: Eric Rizzo ... There s always SourceSafe which, I can testify, is not much fun either...
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            From: Eric Rizzo <eric.rizzo@...>
            > I qualify this by saying that PVCS is probably the worst example to try the
            > integration with;

            There's always SourceSafe which, I can testify, is not much fun either...
          • Steve Freeman
            From: Ron Jeffries ... There are discussions on the C2 wiki, look for VisualAge and VisualAgeGripes, if I remember correctly. In my last
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
              > At 09:06 AM 6/1/2000 -0500, Gareth Reeves wrote:
              > >Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source code control
              > >using Visual Age for Java professional edition?
              >
              > - Have an ID per programmer, not a single ID for everyone. Single ID
              > confuses the code manager, makes it hard to separate work in the rare cases
              > where you need to.
              > - Don't require passwords.
              > - Programmer who owns the task logs in when working on that task.
              > - Version classes and methods with initials of BOTH programmers, and the
              > version number, e.g. rjgr 1.13.
              > - Make as few Applications as you can. Wait until you know what you want
              > before making them.
              >
              > I'm sure others will chime in, those are just what popped into my mind.

              There are discussions on the C2 wiki, look for VisualAge and VisualAgeGripes, if I remember correctly.

              In my last job, we found that the user ID stuff was too annoying for the team to deal with, given all the other things they had to learn, and went to one ID. It bites most when you're starting up and creating/renaming classes a lot -- the VisualAge model for managing classes within a package is a bit broken (you don't notice it so much in Smalltalk because you work more with class extensions). If you have a smaller team, the training issue would be easier.

              One option would be to have a release ID that owns packages and projects. That way, you get warned when you're going to do anything that would affect other people immediately, such as deleting a class, and it's a good way to refocus when switching from coding to releasing.

              There's no direct equivalent of a VA Smalltalk Applications in VA Java, they provide a structure for extending a bunch of classes dynamically. It would have been really cool, but I guess that's the price of time to market.
            • Martin Fowler
              But beware, you have to be connected to the network to do anything and you can t put anything other than Java source under source control. Martin ... From:
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                But beware, you have to be connected to the network to do anything and you can't
                put anything other than Java source under source control.

                Martin

                -----Original Message-----
                From: kentbeck@... [mailto:kentbeck@...]
                Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:51 PM
                To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                Subject: RE: [XP] SCM


                "Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM?"

                Yes. It's fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE. Might you ever lose a
                day tracking down problems with external SCM? If yes, put a crowbar in your
                wallet.

                Kent




                To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
              • Eric Rizzo
                ... Not necessarily true. You can set it up at install so that you have a local repository in addition to the server one, and switch to it at any time.
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  Martin Fowler wrote:
                  >
                  > But beware, you have to be connected to the network to do anything

                  Not necessarily true. You can set it up at install so that you have a local
                  repository in addition to the server one, and switch to it at any time. Moving
                  code from one repos to the other is pretty easy, so you just download the stuff
                  you need from the team repos to your local before you disconnect, then continue
                  to work without the plug, and re-sync with the team repos when you plug back
                  in. We had a number of notebook users who did this on a regular basis.

                  > and you can't
                  > put anything other than Java source under source control.

                  That's a limitation I still don't understand the reason for (in VAJ). I've been
                  told that ENVY (the repository) is capable of holding non-code, so I'm not sure
                  why the ability to do so has continued to be left out of VAJ.

                  Eric
                  --
                  Eric Nicholas Rizzo
                  eric.rizzo@...
                  The Technical Resource Connection, Inc. Perot Systems
                  http://www.trcinc.com
                  ---------------------------------------------------------------
                  "A man talking sense to himself is no more insane than
                  a man talking nonsense not to himself...or just as insane."
                  -Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
                • Peter Booth
                  Hi Gareth, I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results. It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you export code
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Gareth,

                    I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results.
                    It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you
                    export code from VAJ the source formatting gets changed. Specifically
                    methods get reordered and blank lines between methods get removed.

                    This meant that diffs within sourcesafe were no longer meaningful - which
                    is a big deal.

                    If our team had agreed to use a source reformatter as part of check-in
                    (and scripted this) then the problem would have been avoided.
                    VAJ Assist from Instantiations helps by improving the source export
                    within VAJ. I expect to have another opportunity to revisit this problem
                    in my new job, this time with CVS.

                    Peter Booth



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Gareth Reeves" <reevesy@...>
                    To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 10:06 AM
                    Subject: [XP] SCM


                    > Hey
                    >
                    > Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source code control
                    > using Visual Age for Java professional edition?
                    >
                    > Gareth
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------
                    > 'Sufficient to the day are the troubles thereof'
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                    >
                  • jpw@interliant.com
                    Hmmm... we have been exclusively using the VAJ diff facilities in our integration process. It s been quite convenient since it breaks down the differences into
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 4, 2000
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hmmm... we have been exclusively using the VAJ diff facilities in our integration process. It's been quite convenient since it breaks down the differences into individual methods, and the combination of versioned and open editions has allowed the integrators to quickly identify where merging might need to take place.

                      I hadn't thought of it before, but to my knowledge we have never used VSS for diffs on our XP projects. Have you found VAJ diffs lacking?

                      Just curious...

                      Jason White


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From:        "Peter Booth" <pbooth@...>
                      Sent:        06/02/2000 09:56:44 PM
                      To:        <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                      Subj:        Re: [XP] SCM

                      Hi Gareth,

                      I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results.
                      It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you
                      export code from VAJ the source formatting gets changed. Specifically
                      methods get reordered and blank lines between methods get removed.

                      This meant that diffs within sourcesafe were no longer meaningful - which
                      is a big deal.

                      If our team had agreed to use a source reformatter as part of check-in
                      (and scripted this) then the problem would have been avoided.
                      VAJ Assist from Instantiations helps by improving the source export
                      within VAJ. I expect to have another opportunity to revisit this problem
                      in my new job, this time with CVS.

                      Peter Booth

                    • Peter Booth
                      I was working in a team that used a mixture of IDEs. So the record of changes was the SCM tool. You didn t have a problem getting your whole team to sign onto
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 5, 2000
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I was working in a team that used a mixture of IDEs.
                        So the record of changes was the SCM tool.
                        You didn't have a problem getting your whole team to
                        sign onto using VAJ?
                         
                        If I fixed a bug in a class someone else had written
                        and checked it back into VSS, then they couldn't
                        see a simple one line diff between versions using VSS.
                        This is a big problem.
                         
                        Peter
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: jpw@...
                        Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 10:47 PM
                        Subject: Re: [XP] SCM


                        Hmmm... we have been exclusively using the VAJ diff facilities in our integration process. It's been quite convenient since it breaks down the differences into individual methods, and the combination of versioned and open editions has allowed the integrators to quickly identify where merging might need to take place.

                        I hadn't thought of it before, but to my knowledge we have never used VSS for diffs on our XP projects. Have you found VAJ diffs lacking?

                        Just curious...

                        Jason White


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From:        "Peter Booth" <pbooth@...>
                        Sent:        06/02/2000 09:56:44 PM
                        To:        <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                        Subj:        Re: [XP] SCM

                        Hi Gareth,

                        I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results.
                        It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you
                        export code from VAJ the source formatting gets changed. Specifically
                        methods get reordered and blank lines between methods get removed.

                        This meant that diffs within sourcesafe were no longer meaningful - which
                        is a big deal.

                        If our team had agreed to use a source reformatter as part of check-in
                        (and scripted this) then the problem would have been avoided.
                        VAJ Assist from Instantiations helps by improving the source export
                        within VAJ. I expect to have another opportunity to revisit this problem
                        in my new job, this time with CVS.

                        Peter Booth


                        To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@...

                        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                        Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com

                      • jpw@interliant.com
                        The first XP project I worked on was a kind of rebirth for the team members. Most of us had limited experience with Java, and nobody had tried XP before (the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 5, 2000
                        • 0 Attachment
                          The first XP project I worked on was a kind of rebirth for the team members. Most of us had limited experience with Java, and nobody had tried XP before (the core of the team had been "converted" while listening to folks at SD Expo '99 sing the praises of XP). With this drastic re-orientation, and with a lack of experience in other Java IDEs, VAJ was a pretty easy sell. The team I'm working with now is 80% new to the company and probably 70% new to real-world Java development, so VAJ was once again an easy sell.

                          We're about to enter a phase of development which, unfortunately, will likely require the use of a different Java IDE for COM-via-Java development (ugh). Hopefully we can keep COM technologies segregated enough so that developers are only using one kind of IDE for a given class.

                          Thanks for sharing... it's good to know about these roadblocks before they come up!

                          Jason White


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From:        "Peter Booth" <pbooth@...>
                          Sent:        06/05/2000 07:14:32 AM
                          To:        <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                          Subj:        Re: [XP] SCM

                          I was working in a team that used a  mixture of IDEs.
                          So the record of changes was the SCM  tool.
                          You didn't have a problem getting  your whole team to
                          sign onto using VAJ?
                           
                          If I fixed a bug in a class someone  else had written
                          and checked it back into VSS, then  they couldn't
                          see a simple one line diff between  versions using VSS.
                          This is a big problem.
                           
                          Peter
                        • Brett Neumeier
                          ... I ve been using CVS integrated with VAJ professional; there s a free program which provides this (using the Tools API) by implementing the client side of
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 5, 2000
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:06:50AM -0500, Gareth Reeves wrote:
                            > Hey
                            >
                            > Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source
                            > code control using Visual Age for Java professional edition?

                            I've been using CVS integrated with VAJ professional; there's a
                            free program which provides this (using the Tools API) by
                            implementing the client side of client-server CVS -- you can find
                            it on Scott Stanchfield's web site (http://javadude.com/vaj/
                            under the "Tools for 2.0 and Beyond" entry).

                            I've found it to work great, although I have by no means been
                            using it strenuously. It seems to allow one to work in the
                            preferred method (as outlined by others here): commits are shown
                            as being done by particular users; there are no locks on files
                            under any circumstances; when you update from the repository, CVS
                            will merge remote changes into your local workspace, and allows
                            you to resolve potential conflicts before the updates are saved.

                            This has the significant advantage that it costs an order of
                            magnitude less than VAJ enterprise.

                            If your company doesn't need that savings, the
                            more-nicely-integrated solution that VAJ Enterprise provides is
                            probably a better solution.

                            Just my $0.02.

                            -bn

                            --
                            random@...
                            GPG key fingerprint: E089 11F7 7749 C8FF AEBA D4F0 80A3 D2A4 E413 E06F
                          • Tim Mackinnon
                            The only problem with using the same user id is that you can t make use of the new Query functions. Eg. show me all the unreleased types with any owner not the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 6, 2000
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The only problem with using the same user id is that you can't make use of
                              the new Query functions. Eg. show me all the unreleased types with any owner
                              not the current developer. (This essentially gives you a catch up feature -
                              although it wont show you collisions until you version and see the split
                              stream version id's.

                              We don't use individual user id's just machine names (after cartoon
                              characters), we make all the machines as members of the package groups - we
                              do keep one special user, Release Engineer, as the owner of the packages and
                              projects.

                              When we release things, we grab the token, catch up with the baseline (e.g.
                              the query above), compare against released, integrate any changes, run the
                              tests, version, double check for any un-noticed split streams and finally
                              change ownership to the current user and then
                              release to the baseline. Its a little awkward but its not too bad. I look
                              forward to quizzing OTI/IBM when they present their team streams paper at
                              XP-2000<g>

                              I disagree with Ron on using initials - we used to but it becomes a pain -
                              people forget and if you put initials at the end you lose the
                              auto-incrementing (and pressing home del,del... is awkward). Better to just
                              let it auto number and watch out for any split stream numbering. Besides,
                              using pair owners puts this information in the info dialog.

                              Tim
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Chris Collins" <ccollins@...>
                              To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 5:11 PM
                              Subject: RE: [XP] SCM


                              I agree with everything Ron said except the ID per programmer. The biggest
                              problem I ran into with Visual Age source code control was trying to version
                              code I was not the owner. It was a pain to change everything so that I was
                              the owner and then version whereas if everyone is using the same id it is
                              painless to version.

                              ------------------
                              Chris Collins <ccollins@...>
                              RoleModel Software
                              The Extreme Programming Software Studio(TM)
                              <http://www.rolemodelsoft.com>
                              342 Raleigh St.
                              Holly Springs, NC 27540

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                              Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:04 PM
                              To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [XP] SCM


                              At 09:06 AM 6/1/2000 -0500, Gareth Reeves wrote:
                              >Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source code control
                              >using Visual Age for Java professional edition?

                              I assume you mean how to use the built-in source code control that's
                              already there ... here are a few things that come to mind, translated from
                              the Smalltalk version of the same thing.

                              - Have an ID per programmer, not a single ID for everyone. Single ID
                              confuses the code manager, makes it hard to separate work in the rare cases
                              where you need to.
                              - Don't require passwords.
                              - Programmer who owns the task logs in when working on that task.
                              - Version classes and methods with initials of BOTH programmers, and the
                              version number, e.g. rjgr 1.13.
                              - Make as few Applications as you can. Wait until you know what you want
                              before making them.

                              I'm sure others will chime in, those are just what popped into my mind.

                              R



                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com


                              To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                              Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com



                              To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                              Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.