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RE: [XP] SCM

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  • Gareth Reeves
    ... That answers my question, thanks. Gareth
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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      > "Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM?"
      >
      > Yes. It's fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE.

      That answers my question, thanks.

      Gareth
    • Kent Beck
      Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM? Yes. It s fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE. Might you ever lose a day tracking down problems
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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        "Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM?"

        Yes. It's fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE. Might you ever lose a
        day tracking down problems with external SCM? If yes, put a crowbar in your
        wallet.

        Kent
      • Marko Gargenta
        I personally use CVS for source control. What is your opinion on CVS s optimistic locking versus systems such as MS VisualSafe? Marko Gargenta
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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          I personally use CVS for source control.

          What is your opinion on CVS's optimistic locking versus systems such as MS
          VisualSafe?

          Marko Gargenta
        • Webber, Paul
          I agree with Kent. But at my company I still have to check in code to CVS. This is where the tool vaj2cvs came in handy, by Kevin J. Grittner see
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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            I agree with Kent. But at my company I still have to "check in" code to CVS.
            This is where the tool vaj2cvs came in handy, by Kevin J. Grittner see
            http://www.javadude.com/vaj/ <http://www.javadude.com/vaj/> . I use the
            Enterprise edition of VAJ so I do not know how well vaj2cvs works under the
            other editions, but it should do fine.

            Paul
          • Eric Rizzo
            ... Just wanted to second what KB said. I am a veteran VAJ user and just got off a project where I was doubling as team repository administrator. The hours
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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              Kent Beck wrote:
              >
              > "Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM?"
              >
              > Yes. It's fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE. Might you ever lose a
              > day tracking down problems with external SCM? If yes, put a crowbar in your
              > wallet.

              Just wanted to second what KB said. I am a veteran VAJ user and just got off a
              project where I was doubling as team repository administrator. The hours we
              spent trying to get VAJ and PVCS to cooperate (basically getting PVCS to behave
              like a good little SCCI implementor that it is not) cost many times more than
              $3000 (like an order of magnitude more!). The problem is that you are trying
              to mix a repository based storage/CM paradigm with a file-based one; oil and
              water have a better chance of blending smoothly, IMO.
              I qualify this by saying that PVCS is probably the worst example to try the
              integration with; we've got ClearCase set up with VAJ now and it was a lot
              easier than PVCS (haven't really used ClearCase from within VAJ on a regular
              basis yet), and I've also heard success stories with CVS.

              My $0.02 worth of experience,
              Eric
              --
              Eric Nicholas Rizzo
              eric.rizzo@...
              The Technical Resource Connection, Inc. Perot Systems
              http://www.trcinc.com
              ---------------------------------------------------------------
              "A man talking sense to himself is no more insane than
              a man talking nonsense not to himself...or just as insane."
              -Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
            • Kent Quirk
              ... (I m told that Visual SourceSafe is also capable of using, as you put it, an optimistic file locking model. But I ve never met anyone who uses it that
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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                Marko Gargenta wrote:
                >
                > I personally use CVS for source control.
                >
                > What is your opinion on CVS's optimistic locking versus systems such as MS
                > VisualSafe?

                (I'm told that Visual SourceSafe is also capable of using, as you put
                it, an "optimistic" file locking model. But I've never met anyone who
                uses it that way.)

                In any case, I am a total convert - maybe even a religious fanatic - for
                an optimistic source management system. For those who don't know, with
                this kind of model, instead of "checking out" and owning a file until
                you're done with it and check it back in, everyone has a full copy of
                the whole source tree. You edit whatever you want. When you're done, you
                commit your changes to the database.

                CVS does a 3-way compare of the version you checked out, the version
                that's current, and the one you've modified, and figures out where the
                changes are. If two developers modified different sections of the file,
                CVS simply merges both sets. If they modified the same regions, it puts
                in code from BOTH versions and flags the conflict with uncompilable
                marker text. You can hand-merge it.

                After three years of using CVS, I'm amazed at how well it does on the
                merge. Only once that I can recall, when we created a branch and waited
                too long to merge it back, did it have trouble identifying the changes.

                I would never want to use a file locking reservations system again.
                Especially if I'm doing XP.

                Kent


                --
                -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                Kent Quirk | CogniToy: Intelligent toys...
                Game Designer | for intelligent minds.
                kent_quirk@... | http://www.cognitoy.com/
                _____________________________|_________________________________________
              • Steve Freeman
                From: Eric Rizzo ... There s always SourceSafe which, I can testify, is not much fun either...
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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                  From: Eric Rizzo <eric.rizzo@...>
                  > I qualify this by saying that PVCS is probably the worst example to try the
                  > integration with;

                  There's always SourceSafe which, I can testify, is not much fun either...
                • Steve Freeman
                  From: Ron Jeffries ... There are discussions on the C2 wiki, look for VisualAge and VisualAgeGripes, if I remember correctly. In my last
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
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                    From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                    > At 09:06 AM 6/1/2000 -0500, Gareth Reeves wrote:
                    > >Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source code control
                    > >using Visual Age for Java professional edition?
                    >
                    > - Have an ID per programmer, not a single ID for everyone. Single ID
                    > confuses the code manager, makes it hard to separate work in the rare cases
                    > where you need to.
                    > - Don't require passwords.
                    > - Programmer who owns the task logs in when working on that task.
                    > - Version classes and methods with initials of BOTH programmers, and the
                    > version number, e.g. rjgr 1.13.
                    > - Make as few Applications as you can. Wait until you know what you want
                    > before making them.
                    >
                    > I'm sure others will chime in, those are just what popped into my mind.

                    There are discussions on the C2 wiki, look for VisualAge and VisualAgeGripes, if I remember correctly.

                    In my last job, we found that the user ID stuff was too annoying for the team to deal with, given all the other things they had to learn, and went to one ID. It bites most when you're starting up and creating/renaming classes a lot -- the VisualAge model for managing classes within a package is a bit broken (you don't notice it so much in Smalltalk because you work more with class extensions). If you have a smaller team, the training issue would be easier.

                    One option would be to have a release ID that owns packages and projects. That way, you get warned when you're going to do anything that would affect other people immediately, such as deleting a class, and it's a good way to refocus when switching from coding to releasing.

                    There's no direct equivalent of a VA Smalltalk Applications in VA Java, they provide a structure for extending a bunch of classes dynamically. It would have been really cool, but I guess that's the price of time to market.
                  • Martin Fowler
                    But beware, you have to be connected to the network to do anything and you can t put anything other than Java source under source control. Martin ... From:
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
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                      But beware, you have to be connected to the network to do anything and you can't
                      put anything other than Java source under source control.

                      Martin

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: kentbeck@... [mailto:kentbeck@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:51 PM
                      To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [XP] SCM


                      "Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM?"

                      Yes. It's fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE. Might you ever lose a
                      day tracking down problems with external SCM? If yes, put a crowbar in your
                      wallet.

                      Kent




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                    • Eric Rizzo
                      ... Not necessarily true. You can set it up at install so that you have a local repository in addition to the server one, and switch to it at any time.
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
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                        Martin Fowler wrote:
                        >
                        > But beware, you have to be connected to the network to do anything

                        Not necessarily true. You can set it up at install so that you have a local
                        repository in addition to the server one, and switch to it at any time. Moving
                        code from one repos to the other is pretty easy, so you just download the stuff
                        you need from the team repos to your local before you disconnect, then continue
                        to work without the plug, and re-sync with the team repos when you plug back
                        in. We had a number of notebook users who did this on a regular basis.

                        > and you can't
                        > put anything other than Java source under source control.

                        That's a limitation I still don't understand the reason for (in VAJ). I've been
                        told that ENVY (the repository) is capable of holding non-code, so I'm not sure
                        why the ability to do so has continued to be left out of VAJ.

                        Eric
                        --
                        Eric Nicholas Rizzo
                        eric.rizzo@...
                        The Technical Resource Connection, Inc. Perot Systems
                        http://www.trcinc.com
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------
                        "A man talking sense to himself is no more insane than
                        a man talking nonsense not to himself...or just as insane."
                        -Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
                      • Peter Booth
                        Hi Gareth, I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results. It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you export code
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
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                          Hi Gareth,

                          I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results.
                          It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you
                          export code from VAJ the source formatting gets changed. Specifically
                          methods get reordered and blank lines between methods get removed.

                          This meant that diffs within sourcesafe were no longer meaningful - which
                          is a big deal.

                          If our team had agreed to use a source reformatter as part of check-in
                          (and scripted this) then the problem would have been avoided.
                          VAJ Assist from Instantiations helps by improving the source export
                          within VAJ. I expect to have another opportunity to revisit this problem
                          in my new job, this time with CVS.

                          Peter Booth



                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Gareth Reeves" <reevesy@...>
                          To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 10:06 AM
                          Subject: [XP] SCM


                          > Hey
                          >
                          > Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source code control
                          > using Visual Age for Java professional edition?
                          >
                          > Gareth
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------
                          > 'Sufficient to the day are the troubles thereof'
                          >
                          >
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                        • jpw@interliant.com
                          Hmmm... we have been exclusively using the VAJ diff facilities in our integration process. It s been quite convenient since it breaks down the differences into
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 4, 2000
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                            Hmmm... we have been exclusively using the VAJ diff facilities in our integration process. It's been quite convenient since it breaks down the differences into individual methods, and the combination of versioned and open editions has allowed the integrators to quickly identify where merging might need to take place.

                            I hadn't thought of it before, but to my knowledge we have never used VSS for diffs on our XP projects. Have you found VAJ diffs lacking?

                            Just curious...

                            Jason White


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From:        "Peter Booth" <pbooth@...>
                            Sent:        06/02/2000 09:56:44 PM
                            To:        <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                            Subj:        Re: [XP] SCM

                            Hi Gareth,

                            I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results.
                            It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you
                            export code from VAJ the source formatting gets changed. Specifically
                            methods get reordered and blank lines between methods get removed.

                            This meant that diffs within sourcesafe were no longer meaningful - which
                            is a big deal.

                            If our team had agreed to use a source reformatter as part of check-in
                            (and scripted this) then the problem would have been avoided.
                            VAJ Assist from Instantiations helps by improving the source export
                            within VAJ. I expect to have another opportunity to revisit this problem
                            in my new job, this time with CVS.

                            Peter Booth

                          • Peter Booth
                            I was working in a team that used a mixture of IDEs. So the record of changes was the SCM tool. You didn t have a problem getting your whole team to sign onto
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 5, 2000
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                              I was working in a team that used a mixture of IDEs.
                              So the record of changes was the SCM tool.
                              You didn't have a problem getting your whole team to
                              sign onto using VAJ?
                               
                              If I fixed a bug in a class someone else had written
                              and checked it back into VSS, then they couldn't
                              see a simple one line diff between versions using VSS.
                              This is a big problem.
                               
                              Peter
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: jpw@...
                              Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 10:47 PM
                              Subject: Re: [XP] SCM


                              Hmmm... we have been exclusively using the VAJ diff facilities in our integration process. It's been quite convenient since it breaks down the differences into individual methods, and the combination of versioned and open editions has allowed the integrators to quickly identify where merging might need to take place.

                              I hadn't thought of it before, but to my knowledge we have never used VSS for diffs on our XP projects. Have you found VAJ diffs lacking?

                              Just curious...

                              Jason White


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From:        "Peter Booth" <pbooth@...>
                              Sent:        06/02/2000 09:56:44 PM
                              To:        <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                              Subj:        Re: [XP] SCM

                              Hi Gareth,

                              I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results.
                              It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you
                              export code from VAJ the source formatting gets changed. Specifically
                              methods get reordered and blank lines between methods get removed.

                              This meant that diffs within sourcesafe were no longer meaningful - which
                              is a big deal.

                              If our team had agreed to use a source reformatter as part of check-in
                              (and scripted this) then the problem would have been avoided.
                              VAJ Assist from Instantiations helps by improving the source export
                              within VAJ. I expect to have another opportunity to revisit this problem
                              in my new job, this time with CVS.

                              Peter Booth


                              To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@...

                              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                              Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com

                            • jpw@interliant.com
                              The first XP project I worked on was a kind of rebirth for the team members. Most of us had limited experience with Java, and nobody had tried XP before (the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 5, 2000
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                                The first XP project I worked on was a kind of rebirth for the team members. Most of us had limited experience with Java, and nobody had tried XP before (the core of the team had been "converted" while listening to folks at SD Expo '99 sing the praises of XP). With this drastic re-orientation, and with a lack of experience in other Java IDEs, VAJ was a pretty easy sell. The team I'm working with now is 80% new to the company and probably 70% new to real-world Java development, so VAJ was once again an easy sell.

                                We're about to enter a phase of development which, unfortunately, will likely require the use of a different Java IDE for COM-via-Java development (ugh). Hopefully we can keep COM technologies segregated enough so that developers are only using one kind of IDE for a given class.

                                Thanks for sharing... it's good to know about these roadblocks before they come up!

                                Jason White


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From:        "Peter Booth" <pbooth@...>
                                Sent:        06/05/2000 07:14:32 AM
                                To:        <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                                Subj:        Re: [XP] SCM

                                I was working in a team that used a  mixture of IDEs.
                                So the record of changes was the SCM  tool.
                                You didn't have a problem getting  your whole team to
                                sign onto using VAJ?
                                 
                                If I fixed a bug in a class someone  else had written
                                and checked it back into VSS, then  they couldn't
                                see a simple one line diff between  versions using VSS.
                                This is a big problem.
                                 
                                Peter
                              • Brett Neumeier
                                ... I ve been using CVS integrated with VAJ professional; there s a free program which provides this (using the Tools API) by implementing the client side of
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 5, 2000
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                                  On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:06:50AM -0500, Gareth Reeves wrote:
                                  > Hey
                                  >
                                  > Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source
                                  > code control using Visual Age for Java professional edition?

                                  I've been using CVS integrated with VAJ professional; there's a
                                  free program which provides this (using the Tools API) by
                                  implementing the client side of client-server CVS -- you can find
                                  it on Scott Stanchfield's web site (http://javadude.com/vaj/
                                  under the "Tools for 2.0 and Beyond" entry).

                                  I've found it to work great, although I have by no means been
                                  using it strenuously. It seems to allow one to work in the
                                  preferred method (as outlined by others here): commits are shown
                                  as being done by particular users; there are no locks on files
                                  under any circumstances; when you update from the repository, CVS
                                  will merge remote changes into your local workspace, and allows
                                  you to resolve potential conflicts before the updates are saved.

                                  This has the significant advantage that it costs an order of
                                  magnitude less than VAJ enterprise.

                                  If your company doesn't need that savings, the
                                  more-nicely-integrated solution that VAJ Enterprise provides is
                                  probably a better solution.

                                  Just my $0.02.

                                  -bn

                                  --
                                  random@...
                                  GPG key fingerprint: E089 11F7 7749 C8FF AEBA D4F0 80A3 D2A4 E413 E06F
                                • Tim Mackinnon
                                  The only problem with using the same user id is that you can t make use of the new Query functions. Eg. show me all the unreleased types with any owner not the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jun 6, 2000
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                                    The only problem with using the same user id is that you can't make use of
                                    the new Query functions. Eg. show me all the unreleased types with any owner
                                    not the current developer. (This essentially gives you a catch up feature -
                                    although it wont show you collisions until you version and see the split
                                    stream version id's.

                                    We don't use individual user id's just machine names (after cartoon
                                    characters), we make all the machines as members of the package groups - we
                                    do keep one special user, Release Engineer, as the owner of the packages and
                                    projects.

                                    When we release things, we grab the token, catch up with the baseline (e.g.
                                    the query above), compare against released, integrate any changes, run the
                                    tests, version, double check for any un-noticed split streams and finally
                                    change ownership to the current user and then
                                    release to the baseline. Its a little awkward but its not too bad. I look
                                    forward to quizzing OTI/IBM when they present their team streams paper at
                                    XP-2000<g>

                                    I disagree with Ron on using initials - we used to but it becomes a pain -
                                    people forget and if you put initials at the end you lose the
                                    auto-incrementing (and pressing home del,del... is awkward). Better to just
                                    let it auto number and watch out for any split stream numbering. Besides,
                                    using pair owners puts this information in the info dialog.

                                    Tim
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Chris Collins" <ccollins@...>
                                    To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 5:11 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [XP] SCM


                                    I agree with everything Ron said except the ID per programmer. The biggest
                                    problem I ran into with Visual Age source code control was trying to version
                                    code I was not the owner. It was a pain to change everything so that I was
                                    the owner and then version whereas if everyone is using the same id it is
                                    painless to version.

                                    ------------------
                                    Chris Collins <ccollins@...>
                                    RoleModel Software
                                    The Extreme Programming Software Studio(TM)
                                    <http://www.rolemodelsoft.com>
                                    342 Raleigh St.
                                    Holly Springs, NC 27540

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                    Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:04 PM
                                    To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [XP] SCM


                                    At 09:06 AM 6/1/2000 -0500, Gareth Reeves wrote:
                                    >Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source code control
                                    >using Visual Age for Java professional edition?

                                    I assume you mean how to use the built-in source code control that's
                                    already there ... here are a few things that come to mind, translated from
                                    the Smalltalk version of the same thing.

                                    - Have an ID per programmer, not a single ID for everyone. Single ID
                                    confuses the code manager, makes it hard to separate work in the rare cases
                                    where you need to.
                                    - Don't require passwords.
                                    - Programmer who owns the task logs in when working on that task.
                                    - Version classes and methods with initials of BOTH programmers, and the
                                    version number, e.g. rjgr 1.13.
                                    - Make as few Applications as you can. Wait until you know what you want
                                    before making them.

                                    I'm sure others will chime in, those are just what popped into my mind.

                                    R



                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com


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