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RE: [XP] SCM

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  • Gareth Reeves
    Thanks for the good info Ron, and I think that would work with the Enterprise edition of VAJ. But my understanding is (and please someone correct me if I am
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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      Thanks for the good info Ron, and I think that would work with the
      Enterprise edition of VAJ. But my understanding is (and please someone
      correct me if I am wrong) that VAJ Pro doesn't have built in SCM for the
      team, only for the individual.

      However, there are tools in VAJ pro that will let you integrate with
      external SCM tools so that you can do team development. I am interested to
      hear experiences with these tools.

      VAJ enterprise edition costs around $3,000 and professional is only $100.
      Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM?

      Gareth

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 11:04 AM
      > To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [XP] SCM
      >
      >
      > At 09:06 AM 6/1/2000 -0500, Gareth Reeves wrote:
      > >Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source
      > code control
      > >using Visual Age for Java professional edition?
      >
      > I assume you mean how to use the built-in source code control that's
      > already there ... here are a few things that come to mind,
      > translated from
      > the Smalltalk version of the same thing.
      >
      > - Have an ID per programmer, not a single ID for everyone. Single ID
      > confuses the code manager, makes it hard to separate work in the
      > rare cases
      > where you need to.
      > - Don't require passwords.
      > - Programmer who owns the task logs in when working on that task.
      > - Version classes and methods with initials of BOTH programmers, and the
      > version number, e.g. rjgr 1.13.
      > - Make as few Applications as you can. Wait until you know what you want
      > before making them.
      >
      > I'm sure others will chime in, those are just what popped into my mind.
      >
      > R
      >
      >
      >
      > Ron Jeffries
      > www.XProgramming.com
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
      >
      > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
      >
    • Gareth Reeves
      ... That answers my question, thanks. Gareth
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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        > "Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM?"
        >
        > Yes. It's fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE.

        That answers my question, thanks.

        Gareth
      • Chris Collins
        I agree with everything Ron said except the ID per programmer. The biggest problem I ran into with Visual Age source code control was trying to version code I
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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          I agree with everything Ron said except the ID per programmer. The biggest
          problem I ran into with Visual Age source code control was trying to version
          code I was not the owner. It was a pain to change everything so that I was
          the owner and then version whereas if everyone is using the same id it is
          painless to version.

          ------------------
          Chris Collins <ccollins@...>
          RoleModel Software
          The Extreme Programming Software Studio(TM)
          <http://www.rolemodelsoft.com>
          342 Raleigh St.
          Holly Springs, NC 27540

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
          Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:04 PM
          To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
          Subject: Re: [XP] SCM


          At 09:06 AM 6/1/2000 -0500, Gareth Reeves wrote:
          >Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source code control
          >using Visual Age for Java professional edition?

          I assume you mean how to use the built-in source code control that's
          already there ... here are a few things that come to mind, translated from
          the Smalltalk version of the same thing.

          - Have an ID per programmer, not a single ID for everyone. Single ID
          confuses the code manager, makes it hard to separate work in the rare cases
          where you need to.
          - Don't require passwords.
          - Programmer who owns the task logs in when working on that task.
          - Version classes and methods with initials of BOTH programmers, and the
          version number, e.g. rjgr 1.13.
          - Make as few Applications as you can. Wait until you know what you want
          before making them.

          I'm sure others will chime in, those are just what popped into my mind.

          R



          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com


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        • Kent Beck
          Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM? Yes. It s fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE. Might you ever lose a day tracking down problems
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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            "Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM?"

            Yes. It's fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE. Might you ever lose a
            day tracking down problems with external SCM? If yes, put a crowbar in your
            wallet.

            Kent
          • Marko Gargenta
            I personally use CVS for source control. What is your opinion on CVS s optimistic locking versus systems such as MS VisualSafe? Marko Gargenta
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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              I personally use CVS for source control.

              What is your opinion on CVS's optimistic locking versus systems such as MS
              VisualSafe?

              Marko Gargenta
            • Webber, Paul
              I agree with Kent. But at my company I still have to check in code to CVS. This is where the tool vaj2cvs came in handy, by Kevin J. Grittner see
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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                I agree with Kent. But at my company I still have to "check in" code to CVS.
                This is where the tool vaj2cvs came in handy, by Kevin J. Grittner see
                http://www.javadude.com/vaj/ <http://www.javadude.com/vaj/> . I use the
                Enterprise edition of VAJ so I do not know how well vaj2cvs works under the
                other editions, but it should do fine.

                Paul
              • Eric Rizzo
                ... Just wanted to second what KB said. I am a veteran VAJ user and just got off a project where I was doubling as team repository administrator. The hours
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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                  Kent Beck wrote:
                  >
                  > "Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM?"
                  >
                  > Yes. It's fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE. Might you ever lose a
                  > day tracking down problems with external SCM? If yes, put a crowbar in your
                  > wallet.

                  Just wanted to second what KB said. I am a veteran VAJ user and just got off a
                  project where I was doubling as team repository administrator. The hours we
                  spent trying to get VAJ and PVCS to cooperate (basically getting PVCS to behave
                  like a good little SCCI implementor that it is not) cost many times more than
                  $3000 (like an order of magnitude more!). The problem is that you are trying
                  to mix a repository based storage/CM paradigm with a file-based one; oil and
                  water have a better chance of blending smoothly, IMO.
                  I qualify this by saying that PVCS is probably the worst example to try the
                  integration with; we've got ClearCase set up with VAJ now and it was a lot
                  easier than PVCS (haven't really used ClearCase from within VAJ on a regular
                  basis yet), and I've also heard success stories with CVS.

                  My $0.02 worth of experience,
                  Eric
                  --
                  Eric Nicholas Rizzo
                  eric.rizzo@...
                  The Technical Resource Connection, Inc. Perot Systems
                  http://www.trcinc.com
                  ---------------------------------------------------------------
                  "A man talking sense to himself is no more insane than
                  a man talking nonsense not to himself...or just as insane."
                  -Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
                • Kent Quirk
                  ... (I m told that Visual SourceSafe is also capable of using, as you put it, an optimistic file locking model. But I ve never met anyone who uses it that
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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                    Marko Gargenta wrote:
                    >
                    > I personally use CVS for source control.
                    >
                    > What is your opinion on CVS's optimistic locking versus systems such as MS
                    > VisualSafe?

                    (I'm told that Visual SourceSafe is also capable of using, as you put
                    it, an "optimistic" file locking model. But I've never met anyone who
                    uses it that way.)

                    In any case, I am a total convert - maybe even a religious fanatic - for
                    an optimistic source management system. For those who don't know, with
                    this kind of model, instead of "checking out" and owning a file until
                    you're done with it and check it back in, everyone has a full copy of
                    the whole source tree. You edit whatever you want. When you're done, you
                    commit your changes to the database.

                    CVS does a 3-way compare of the version you checked out, the version
                    that's current, and the one you've modified, and figures out where the
                    changes are. If two developers modified different sections of the file,
                    CVS simply merges both sets. If they modified the same regions, it puts
                    in code from BOTH versions and flags the conflict with uncompilable
                    marker text. You can hand-merge it.

                    After three years of using CVS, I'm amazed at how well it does on the
                    merge. Only once that I can recall, when we created a branch and waited
                    too long to merge it back, did it have trouble identifying the changes.

                    I would never want to use a file locking reservations system again.
                    Especially if I'm doing XP.

                    Kent


                    --
                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Kent Quirk | CogniToy: Intelligent toys...
                    Game Designer | for intelligent minds.
                    kent_quirk@... | http://www.cognitoy.com/
                    _____________________________|_________________________________________
                  • Steve Freeman
                    From: Eric Rizzo ... There s always SourceSafe which, I can testify, is not much fun either...
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 1, 2000
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                      From: Eric Rizzo <eric.rizzo@...>
                      > I qualify this by saying that PVCS is probably the worst example to try the
                      > integration with;

                      There's always SourceSafe which, I can testify, is not much fun either...
                    • Steve Freeman
                      From: Ron Jeffries ... There are discussions on the C2 wiki, look for VisualAge and VisualAgeGripes, if I remember correctly. In my last
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
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                        From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                        > At 09:06 AM 6/1/2000 -0500, Gareth Reeves wrote:
                        > >Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source code control
                        > >using Visual Age for Java professional edition?
                        >
                        > - Have an ID per programmer, not a single ID for everyone. Single ID
                        > confuses the code manager, makes it hard to separate work in the rare cases
                        > where you need to.
                        > - Don't require passwords.
                        > - Programmer who owns the task logs in when working on that task.
                        > - Version classes and methods with initials of BOTH programmers, and the
                        > version number, e.g. rjgr 1.13.
                        > - Make as few Applications as you can. Wait until you know what you want
                        > before making them.
                        >
                        > I'm sure others will chime in, those are just what popped into my mind.

                        There are discussions on the C2 wiki, look for VisualAge and VisualAgeGripes, if I remember correctly.

                        In my last job, we found that the user ID stuff was too annoying for the team to deal with, given all the other things they had to learn, and went to one ID. It bites most when you're starting up and creating/renaming classes a lot -- the VisualAge model for managing classes within a package is a bit broken (you don't notice it so much in Smalltalk because you work more with class extensions). If you have a smaller team, the training issue would be easier.

                        One option would be to have a release ID that owns packages and projects. That way, you get warned when you're going to do anything that would affect other people immediately, such as deleting a class, and it's a good way to refocus when switching from coding to releasing.

                        There's no direct equivalent of a VA Smalltalk Applications in VA Java, they provide a structure for extending a bunch of classes dynamically. It would have been really cool, but I guess that's the price of time to market.
                      • Martin Fowler
                        But beware, you have to be connected to the network to do anything and you can t put anything other than Java source under source control. Martin ... From:
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
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                          But beware, you have to be connected to the network to do anything and you can't
                          put anything other than Java source under source control.

                          Martin

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: kentbeck@... [mailto:kentbeck@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:51 PM
                          To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [XP] SCM


                          "Can the extra cost be justified by the built in SCM?"

                          Yes. It's fast, robust, and integrated with the IDE. Might you ever lose a
                          day tracking down problems with external SCM? If yes, put a crowbar in your
                          wallet.

                          Kent




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                        • Eric Rizzo
                          ... Not necessarily true. You can set it up at install so that you have a local repository in addition to the server one, and switch to it at any time.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
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                            Martin Fowler wrote:
                            >
                            > But beware, you have to be connected to the network to do anything

                            Not necessarily true. You can set it up at install so that you have a local
                            repository in addition to the server one, and switch to it at any time. Moving
                            code from one repos to the other is pretty easy, so you just download the stuff
                            you need from the team repos to your local before you disconnect, then continue
                            to work without the plug, and re-sync with the team repos when you plug back
                            in. We had a number of notebook users who did this on a regular basis.

                            > and you can't
                            > put anything other than Java source under source control.

                            That's a limitation I still don't understand the reason for (in VAJ). I've been
                            told that ENVY (the repository) is capable of holding non-code, so I'm not sure
                            why the ability to do so has continued to be left out of VAJ.

                            Eric
                            --
                            Eric Nicholas Rizzo
                            eric.rizzo@...
                            The Technical Resource Connection, Inc. Perot Systems
                            http://www.trcinc.com
                            ---------------------------------------------------------------
                            "A man talking sense to himself is no more insane than
                            a man talking nonsense not to himself...or just as insane."
                            -Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
                          • Peter Booth
                            Hi Gareth, I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results. It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you export code
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 2, 2000
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                              Hi Gareth,

                              I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results.
                              It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you
                              export code from VAJ the source formatting gets changed. Specifically
                              methods get reordered and blank lines between methods get removed.

                              This meant that diffs within sourcesafe were no longer meaningful - which
                              is a big deal.

                              If our team had agreed to use a source reformatter as part of check-in
                              (and scripted this) then the problem would have been avoided.
                              VAJ Assist from Instantiations helps by improving the source export
                              within VAJ. I expect to have another opportunity to revisit this problem
                              in my new job, this time with CVS.

                              Peter Booth



                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Gareth Reeves" <reevesy@...>
                              To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 10:06 AM
                              Subject: [XP] SCM


                              > Hey
                              >
                              > Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source code control
                              > using Visual Age for Java professional edition?
                              >
                              > Gareth
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------------------------
                              > 'Sufficient to the day are the troubles thereof'
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
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                              extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
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                              >
                            • jpw@interliant.com
                              Hmmm... we have been exclusively using the VAJ diff facilities in our integration process. It s been quite convenient since it breaks down the differences into
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 4, 2000
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                                Hmmm... we have been exclusively using the VAJ diff facilities in our integration process. It's been quite convenient since it breaks down the differences into individual methods, and the combination of versioned and open editions has allowed the integrators to quickly identify where merging might need to take place.

                                I hadn't thought of it before, but to my knowledge we have never used VSS for diffs on our XP projects. Have you found VAJ diffs lacking?

                                Just curious...

                                Jason White


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From:        "Peter Booth" <pbooth@...>
                                Sent:        06/02/2000 09:56:44 PM
                                To:        <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                                Subj:        Re: [XP] SCM

                                Hi Gareth,

                                I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results.
                                It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you
                                export code from VAJ the source formatting gets changed. Specifically
                                methods get reordered and blank lines between methods get removed.

                                This meant that diffs within sourcesafe were no longer meaningful - which
                                is a big deal.

                                If our team had agreed to use a source reformatter as part of check-in
                                (and scripted this) then the problem would have been avoided.
                                VAJ Assist from Instantiations helps by improving the source export
                                within VAJ. I expect to have another opportunity to revisit this problem
                                in my new job, this time with CVS.

                                Peter Booth

                              • Peter Booth
                                I was working in a team that used a mixture of IDEs. So the record of changes was the SCM tool. You didn t have a problem getting your whole team to sign onto
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 5, 2000
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                                  I was working in a team that used a mixture of IDEs.
                                  So the record of changes was the SCM tool.
                                  You didn't have a problem getting your whole team to
                                  sign onto using VAJ?
                                   
                                  If I fixed a bug in a class someone else had written
                                  and checked it back into VSS, then they couldn't
                                  see a simple one line diff between versions using VSS.
                                  This is a big problem.
                                   
                                  Peter
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: jpw@...
                                  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 10:47 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [XP] SCM


                                  Hmmm... we have been exclusively using the VAJ diff facilities in our integration process. It's been quite convenient since it breaks down the differences into individual methods, and the combination of versioned and open editions has allowed the integrators to quickly identify where merging might need to take place.

                                  I hadn't thought of it before, but to my knowledge we have never used VSS for diffs on our XP projects. Have you found VAJ diffs lacking?

                                  Just curious...

                                  Jason White


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From:        "Peter Booth" <pbooth@...>
                                  Sent:        06/02/2000 09:56:44 PM
                                  To:        <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                                  Subj:        Re: [XP] SCM

                                  Hi Gareth,

                                  I used VAJ Professional with MS SourceSafe with mixed results.
                                  It was fine to configure, but ultimately very painful. Every time you
                                  export code from VAJ the source formatting gets changed. Specifically
                                  methods get reordered and blank lines between methods get removed.

                                  This meant that diffs within sourcesafe were no longer meaningful - which
                                  is a big deal.

                                  If our team had agreed to use a source reformatter as part of check-in
                                  (and scripted this) then the problem would have been avoided.
                                  VAJ Assist from Instantiations helps by improving the source export
                                  within VAJ. I expect to have another opportunity to revisit this problem
                                  in my new job, this time with CVS.

                                  Peter Booth


                                  To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@...

                                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                                  Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com

                                • jpw@interliant.com
                                  The first XP project I worked on was a kind of rebirth for the team members. Most of us had limited experience with Java, and nobody had tried XP before (the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jun 5, 2000
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                                    The first XP project I worked on was a kind of rebirth for the team members. Most of us had limited experience with Java, and nobody had tried XP before (the core of the team had been "converted" while listening to folks at SD Expo '99 sing the praises of XP). With this drastic re-orientation, and with a lack of experience in other Java IDEs, VAJ was a pretty easy sell. The team I'm working with now is 80% new to the company and probably 70% new to real-world Java development, so VAJ was once again an easy sell.

                                    We're about to enter a phase of development which, unfortunately, will likely require the use of a different Java IDE for COM-via-Java development (ugh). Hopefully we can keep COM technologies segregated enough so that developers are only using one kind of IDE for a given class.

                                    Thanks for sharing... it's good to know about these roadblocks before they come up!

                                    Jason White


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From:        "Peter Booth" <pbooth@...>
                                    Sent:        06/05/2000 07:14:32 AM
                                    To:        <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                                    Subj:        Re: [XP] SCM

                                    I was working in a team that used a  mixture of IDEs.
                                    So the record of changes was the SCM  tool.
                                    You didn't have a problem getting  your whole team to
                                    sign onto using VAJ?
                                     
                                    If I fixed a bug in a class someone  else had written
                                    and checked it back into VSS, then  they couldn't
                                    see a simple one line diff between  versions using VSS.
                                    This is a big problem.
                                     
                                    Peter
                                  • Brett Neumeier
                                    ... I ve been using CVS integrated with VAJ professional; there s a free program which provides this (using the Tools API) by implementing the client side of
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jun 5, 2000
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                                      On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:06:50AM -0500, Gareth Reeves wrote:
                                      > Hey
                                      >
                                      > Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source
                                      > code control using Visual Age for Java professional edition?

                                      I've been using CVS integrated with VAJ professional; there's a
                                      free program which provides this (using the Tools API) by
                                      implementing the client side of client-server CVS -- you can find
                                      it on Scott Stanchfield's web site (http://javadude.com/vaj/
                                      under the "Tools for 2.0 and Beyond" entry).

                                      I've found it to work great, although I have by no means been
                                      using it strenuously. It seems to allow one to work in the
                                      preferred method (as outlined by others here): commits are shown
                                      as being done by particular users; there are no locks on files
                                      under any circumstances; when you update from the repository, CVS
                                      will merge remote changes into your local workspace, and allows
                                      you to resolve potential conflicts before the updates are saved.

                                      This has the significant advantage that it costs an order of
                                      magnitude less than VAJ enterprise.

                                      If your company doesn't need that savings, the
                                      more-nicely-integrated solution that VAJ Enterprise provides is
                                      probably a better solution.

                                      Just my $0.02.

                                      -bn

                                      --
                                      random@...
                                      GPG key fingerprint: E089 11F7 7749 C8FF AEBA D4F0 80A3 D2A4 E413 E06F
                                    • Tim Mackinnon
                                      The only problem with using the same user id is that you can t make use of the new Query functions. Eg. show me all the unreleased types with any owner not the
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jun 6, 2000
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                                        The only problem with using the same user id is that you can't make use of
                                        the new Query functions. Eg. show me all the unreleased types with any owner
                                        not the current developer. (This essentially gives you a catch up feature -
                                        although it wont show you collisions until you version and see the split
                                        stream version id's.

                                        We don't use individual user id's just machine names (after cartoon
                                        characters), we make all the machines as members of the package groups - we
                                        do keep one special user, Release Engineer, as the owner of the packages and
                                        projects.

                                        When we release things, we grab the token, catch up with the baseline (e.g.
                                        the query above), compare against released, integrate any changes, run the
                                        tests, version, double check for any un-noticed split streams and finally
                                        change ownership to the current user and then
                                        release to the baseline. Its a little awkward but its not too bad. I look
                                        forward to quizzing OTI/IBM when they present their team streams paper at
                                        XP-2000<g>

                                        I disagree with Ron on using initials - we used to but it becomes a pain -
                                        people forget and if you put initials at the end you lose the
                                        auto-incrementing (and pressing home del,del... is awkward). Better to just
                                        let it auto number and watch out for any split stream numbering. Besides,
                                        using pair owners puts this information in the info dialog.

                                        Tim
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Chris Collins" <ccollins@...>
                                        To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
                                        Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 5:11 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [XP] SCM


                                        I agree with everything Ron said except the ID per programmer. The biggest
                                        problem I ran into with Visual Age source code control was trying to version
                                        code I was not the owner. It was a pain to change everything so that I was
                                        the owner and then version whereas if everyone is using the same id it is
                                        painless to version.

                                        ------------------
                                        Chris Collins <ccollins@...>
                                        RoleModel Software
                                        The Extreme Programming Software Studio(TM)
                                        <http://www.rolemodelsoft.com>
                                        342 Raleigh St.
                                        Holly Springs, NC 27540

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                                        Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:04 PM
                                        To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [XP] SCM


                                        At 09:06 AM 6/1/2000 -0500, Gareth Reeves wrote:
                                        >Does anybody have recommendations/experiences for team source code control
                                        >using Visual Age for Java professional edition?

                                        I assume you mean how to use the built-in source code control that's
                                        already there ... here are a few things that come to mind, translated from
                                        the Smalltalk version of the same thing.

                                        - Have an ID per programmer, not a single ID for everyone. Single ID
                                        confuses the code manager, makes it hard to separate work in the rare cases
                                        where you need to.
                                        - Don't require passwords.
                                        - Programmer who owns the task logs in when working on that task.
                                        - Version classes and methods with initials of BOTH programmers, and the
                                        version number, e.g. rjgr 1.13.
                                        - Make as few Applications as you can. Wait until you know what you want
                                        before making them.

                                        I'm sure others will chime in, those are just what popped into my mind.

                                        R



                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com


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