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RE: [XP] Alert

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  • Robert Martin UncleBob
    ... I don t think there *is* such a thing as the RUP requirements phase . The initial phase of RUP is called Inception . It is composed of a batch of
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 1 11:32 AM
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      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Steve Ropa [mailto:steve@...]

      > Of course the RUP requirements phase grafted to the beginning
      > of an XP project didn't help his case, since I can't imagine
      > how you could *do* XP without stories and the planning game.

      I don't think there *is* such a thing as "the RUP requirements phase". The
      initial phase of RUP is called "Inception". It is composed of a batch of
      self-similar iterations, each of which deliver executable code, and each of
      which is driven by use-cases.

      There is nothing in RUP that says your use-cases have to be complete and
      detailed before starting development. (Though I could wish that more people
      understood that...)

      -----------------------------------------------
      Robert C. Martin |
      President & Founder |
      Object Mentor Inc. | unclebob @ objectmentor dot com
      PO Box 5757 | Tel: (800) 338-6716 x15
      565 Lakeview Pkwy | Fax: (847) 573-1658
      Suite 135 |
      Vernon Hills, IL, | www.objectmentor.com
      60061 |
      -----------------------------------------------
    • Robert Martin UncleBob
      ... Use cases, as Ivar describes them in OOSE, are stories. One or two sentences describing simple situations. Unfortunately (IMHO) many people have
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 1 11:48 AM
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        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Booch, Grady [mailto:egb@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 9:09 PM
        > To: 'extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com'
        > Subject: RE: [XP] <something> Alert
        >
        >
        > > Seems to me that if you're gonna do XP, you need stories. Card,
        > > Conversation, Confirmation. Use cases are /none/ of those. Use cases
        > > are a bag on the side of XP. Besides, all you need on each card is a
        > > sentence. We could have made the stories up in the time it took to
        > > write these emails.
        >
        > [egb> ] Ron, would you please explain why you believe that
        > use cases are not
        > stories? Use cases ARE stories in the way that I apply them.

        Use cases, as Ivar describes them in OOSE, are stories. One or two
        sentences describing simple situations. Unfortunately (IMHO) many people
        have formalized use-cases to an unecessary degree. What's more, many people
        try to get *all* there use cases *done* before they ever start developing.
        They turn use cases into a *phase* and a deliverable. This is the kind of
        use-case analysis that is completely incompatible with XP (and with RUP for
        that matter.)
      • Robert Martin UncleBob
        ... I agree with you. We don t want to treat stories like a phase or a deliverable. Given use cases we don t want to institute a phase to translate them into
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 1 11:55 AM
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          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Bryan Dollery [mailto:Bryan.Dollery@...]

          > I wasn't suggesting that
          > we write use-cases. I was just replying to Dale's post where
          > he described a
          > project where the use-cases already exists.
          >
          > He suggested turning them into stories, I asked why bother.

          I agree with you. We don't want to treat stories like a phase or a
          deliverable. Given use cases we don't want to institute a phase to
          translate them into stories. Stories are, after all, just planning tokens.

          If a customer has gone to the trouble to write elaborated use cases, I'd
          surely read them and get familiar with them. I'd treat this as *part* of
          the conversation with the customer. But then I'd still need planning
          tokens. For those I'd work with the customer to break the use-cases into
          plannable stories. This is not extra work, its just part of the process.

          -----------------------------------------------
          Robert C. Martin |
          President & Founder |
          Object Mentor Inc. | unclebob @ objectmentor dot com
          PO Box 5757 | Tel: (800) 338-6716 x15
          565 Lakeview Pkwy | Fax: (847) 573-1658
          Suite 135 |
          Vernon Hills, IL, | www.objectmentor.com
          60061 |
          -----------------------------------------------
        • Dan Rawsthorne
          Robert Martin UncleBob [mailto:unclebob@objectmentor.com] Booch, Grady [mailto:egb@rational.com] ... There is one big difference between Stories and Use Cases.
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 1 12:05 PM
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            Robert Martin UncleBob [mailto:unclebob@...]

            Booch, Grady [mailto:egb@...]
            > >
            > > > Seems to me that if you're gonna do XP, you need stories. Card,
            > > > Conversation, Confirmation. Use cases are /none/ of
            > those. Use cases
            > > > are a bag on the side of XP. Besides, all you need on
            > each card is a
            > > > sentence. We could have made the stories up in the time it took to
            > > > write these emails.
            > >
            > > [egb> ] Ron, would you please explain why you believe that
            > > use cases are not
            > > stories? Use cases ARE stories in the way that I apply them.
            >
            > Use cases, as Ivar describes them in OOSE, are stories. One or two
            > sentences describing simple situations. Unfortunately (IMHO)
            > many people
            > have formalized use-cases to an unecessary degree. What's
            > more, many people
            > try to get *all* there use cases *done* before they ever
            > start developing.
            > They turn use cases into a *phase* and a deliverable. This
            > is the kind of
            > use-case analysis that is completely incompatible with XP
            > (and with RUP for
            > that matter.)

            There is one big difference between Stories and Use Cases. Stories are not
            intended to be complete, they are "promises for conversation". Use Cases, on
            the other hand, are intended to provide enough informaton to develop from.
            This is independent from whether or not they are developed iteratively - it
            is just their substance.

            The way I look at it is: the story is the first draft, the use case is the
            final (probably undocumented) draft (after the conversations). Of course,
            the use cases can be at yet another level of abstraction, and provide the
            context for understanding the individual stories, which is how I like to use
            them.

            Dan ;-)
          • Dan Rawsthorne
            Robert Martin UncleBob [mailto:unclebob@objectmentor.com] ... My thoughts, exactly. This is one way to use XP within the context of a large formal development
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 1 12:07 PM
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              Robert Martin UncleBob [mailto:unclebob@...]
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Bryan Dollery [mailto:Bryan.Dollery@...]
              >
              > > I wasn't suggesting that
              > > we write use-cases. I was just replying to Dale's post where
              > > he described a
              > > project where the use-cases already exists.
              > >
              > > He suggested turning them into stories, I asked why bother.
              >
              > I agree with you. We don't want to treat stories like a phase or a
              > deliverable. Given use cases we don't want to institute a phase to
              > translate them into stories. Stories are, after all, just
              > planning tokens.
              >
              > If a customer has gone to the trouble to write elaborated use
              > cases, I'd
              > surely read them and get familiar with them. I'd treat this
              > as *part* of
              > the conversation with the customer. But then I'd still need planning
              > tokens. For those I'd work with the customer to break the
              > use-cases into
              > plannable stories. This is not extra work, its just part of
              > the process.

              My thoughts, exactly. This is one way to use XP within the context of a
              large formal development structure... Dan ;-)
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... I understand everything you say here except the part about agreeing. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The central e in Jeffries is silent ... and
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 1 2:16 PM
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                Around Sunday, September 1, 2002, 2:55:26 PM, Robert Martin UncleBob wrote:

                >> I wasn't suggesting that
                >> we write use-cases. I was just replying to Dale's post where
                >> he described a
                >> project where the use-cases already exists.
                >>
                >> He suggested turning them into stories, I asked why bother.

                > I agree with you. We don't want to treat stories like a phase or a
                > deliverable. Given use cases we don't want to institute a phase to
                > translate them into stories. Stories are, after all, just planning tokens.

                > If a customer has gone to the trouble to write elaborated use cases, I'd
                > surely read them and get familiar with them. I'd treat this as *part* of
                > the conversation with the customer. But then I'd still need planning
                > tokens. For those I'd work with the customer to break the use-cases into
                > plannable stories. This is not extra work, its just part of the process.

                I understand everything you say here except the part about agreeing.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                The central "e" in "Jeffries" is silent ... and invisible.
              • Steve Ropa
                Boy, a week later and I still get in trouble for being too quick on the reply! Yes, I was responding directly to the writer s law that XP should start with
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 3 7:25 AM
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                  Boy, a week later and I still get in trouble for being too quick on the reply!

                  Yes, I was responding directly to the writer's "law" that XP should start with the RUP Requirements Phase bolted on the front.

                  When I was "doing RUP" as I understood it(even after official training from Rational), it truly appeared that the inception phase was almost exclusively requirements gathering and business justification, and that no design or code really was to happen until elaboration. I misunderstood, like many developers, but I'm feeling much better now.

                  Steve

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Robert Martin UncleBob [mailto:unclebob@...]
                  > Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 12:33 PM
                  > To: 'extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com'
                  > Subject: RE: [XP] <something> Alert
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Steve Ropa [mailto:steve@...]
                  >
                  > > Of course the RUP requirements phase grafted to the beginning
                  > > of an XP project didn't help his case, since I can't imagine
                  > > how you could *do* XP without stories and the planning game.
                  >
                  > I don't think there *is* such a thing as "the RUP
                  > requirements phase". The
                  > initial phase of RUP is called "Inception". It is composed
                  > of a batch of
                  > self-similar iterations, each of which deliver executable
                  > code, and each of
                  > which is driven by use-cases.
                  >
                  > There is nothing in RUP that says your use-cases have to be
                  > complete and
                  > detailed before starting development. (Though I could wish
                  > that more people
                  > understood that...)
                  >
                  > -----------------------------------------------
                  > Robert C. Martin |
                  > President & Founder |
                  > Object Mentor Inc. | unclebob @ objectmentor dot com
                  > PO Box 5757 | Tel: (800) 338-6716 x15
                  > 565 Lakeview Pkwy | Fax: (847) 573-1658
                  > Suite 135 |
                  > Vernon Hills, IL, | www.objectmentor.com
                  > 60061 |
                  > -----------------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
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