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Re: [XP] what's the deal with CRC Cards?

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... Why not 1. Draw it on a white board; 2. Use white board as guide to coding tests; 3. Erase whiteboard when someone wants the space. ? Ron Jeffries
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 1 2:43 AM
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      Around Thursday, August 1, 2002, 5:32:15 AM, Phil Lewis wrote:

      > 1. Draw it on a white board
      > 2. Calrify
      > 3. Copy it to paper
      > 4. Erase the white boeard
      > 5. Copy from paper to tests
      > 6. Copy tests to code
      > 7. Throw away the paper

      Why not

      1. Draw it on a white board;
      2. Use white board as guide to coding tests;
      3. Erase whiteboard when someone wants the space.

      ?

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Wisdom begins when we discover the difference between
      "That makes no sense" and "I don't understand". --Mary Doria Russell
    • Phil Lewis
      Thats Better. I was distracted by the fact that we cannot see the whiteboard from where we code. ...
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 1 2:48 AM
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        Thats Better.

        I was distracted by the fact that we cannot see the whiteboard from where we
        code.

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
        > Sent: 01 August 2002 10:43
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [XP] what's the deal with CRC Cards?
        >
        >
        > Around Thursday, August 1, 2002, 5:32:15 AM, Phil Lewis wrote:
        >
        > > 1. Draw it on a white board
        > > 2. Calrify
        > > 3. Copy it to paper
        > > 4. Erase the white boeard
        > > 5. Copy from paper to tests
        > > 6. Copy tests to code
        > > 7. Throw away the paper
        >
        > Why not
        >
        > 1. Draw it on a white board;
        > 2. Use white board as guide to coding tests;
        > 3. Erase whiteboard when someone wants the space.
        >
        > ?
        >
        > Ron Jeffries
        > www.XProgramming.com
        > Wisdom begins when we discover the difference between
        > "That makes no sense" and "I don't understand". --Mary Doria Russell
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
        >
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        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >


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      • Bryan Dollery
        Hi Ron, ... And I thought that you were meant to be extreme! What s wrong with 1. Draw it on a whiteboard 2. Rub it out 3. Go code it TFD ? (I use this
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 1 2:52 AM
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          Hi Ron,

          > > 1. Draw it on a white board
          > > 2. Calrify
          > > 3. Copy it to paper
          > > 4. Erase the white boeard
          > > 5. Copy from paper to tests
          > > 6. Copy tests to code
          > > 7. Throw away the paper
          >
          > Why not
          >
          > 1. Draw it on a white board;
          > 2. Use white board as guide to coding tests;
          > 3. Erase whiteboard when someone wants the space.

          And I thought that you were meant to be extreme!

          What's wrong with

          1. Draw it on a whiteboard
          2. Rub it out
          3. Go code it TFD

          ?

          (I use this technique - if it's too big to fit in my head, it's too complex
          to go in my system - or - if I need it written down, then I obviously don't
          understand it yet)

          Cheers,

          Bryan
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... Ohhhh ... then work on that, not on diagrams ... ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The practices are not the knowing: they are a path to the knowing.
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 1 2:58 AM
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            Around Thursday, August 1, 2002, 5:48:38 AM, Phil Lewis wrote:

            > I was distracted by the fact that we cannot see the whiteboard from where we
            > code.

            Ohhhh ... then work on that, not on diagrams ... ;->

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            The practices are not the knowing: they are a path to the knowing.
          • Ron Jeffries
            ... It s called Extreme Programming, not Memory Extension. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Sorry about your cow ... I didn t know she was sacred.
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 1 2:59 AM
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              Around Thursday, August 1, 2002, 5:52:47 AM, Bryan Dollery wrote:

              >> 1. Draw it on a white board;
              >> 2. Use white board as guide to coding tests;
              >> 3. Erase whiteboard when someone wants the space.

              > And I thought that you were meant to be extreme!

              > What's wrong with

              > 1. Draw it on a whiteboard
              > 2. Rub it out
              > 3. Go code it TFD

              It's called Extreme Programming, not Memory Extension.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Sorry about your cow ... I didn't know she was sacred.
            • Fuqua, Andrew (ISSAtlanta)
              In the early days of this project, we drew and erased and drew and erased on a white board until (1) we understood it, (2) we knew it, and (3) we agreed on it.
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 1 6:13 AM
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                In the early days of this project, we drew and erased and drew and erased on
                a white board until (1) we understood it, (2) we knew it, and (3) we agreed
                on it. But the path we were taking hadn't been clearly set -- there wasn't a
                lot of pre-existing code to guide (constrict) our path. And there were
                bigger holes to fill in. So we had to refer to the board a lot -- it aided
                our memory.

                Now, a year and a half later, we're blazing fewer new trails -- our path is
                often set by existing code. New code seems to fit a certain way in the
                puzzle. We don't need many new diagrams. Our structure is stable. What
                scribbling we do is simple enough to keep in our head.

                The net is, earlier on, I find Ron's 3 more helpful. Later on, I find
                Bryan's 3 sufficient.

                andrew
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:59 AM
                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [XP] what's the deal with CRC Cards?


                Around Thursday, August 1, 2002, 5:52:47 AM, Bryan Dollery wrote:

                >> 1. Draw it on a white board;
                >> 2. Use white board as guide to coding tests;
                >> 3. Erase whiteboard when someone wants the space.

                > And I thought that you were meant to be extreme!

                > What's wrong with

                > 1. Draw it on a whiteboard
                > 2. Rub it out
                > 3. Go code it TFD

                It's called Extreme Programming, not Memory Extension.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Sorry about your cow ... I didn't know she was sacred.


                To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

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              • Dinwiddie, George
                Step 0, install a whiteboard near the computers.
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 1 8:22 AM
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                  Step 0, install a whiteboard near the computers.

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Phil Lewis [mailto:phil.lewis@...]
                  > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:49 AM
                  > To: 'extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com'
                  > Subject: RE: [XP] what's the deal with CRC Cards?
                  >
                  >
                  > Thats Better.
                  >
                  > I was distracted by the fact that we cannot see the
                  > whiteboard from where we
                  > code.
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
                  > > Sent: 01 August 2002 10:43
                  > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: Re: [XP] what's the deal with CRC Cards?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Around Thursday, August 1, 2002, 5:32:15 AM, Phil Lewis wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > 1. Draw it on a white board
                  > > > 2. Calrify
                  > > > 3. Copy it to paper
                  > > > 4. Erase the white boeard
                  > > > 5. Copy from paper to tests
                  > > > 6. Copy tests to code
                  > > > 7. Throw away the paper
                  > >
                  > > Why not
                  > >
                  > > 1. Draw it on a white board;
                  > > 2. Use white board as guide to coding tests;
                  > > 3. Erase whiteboard when someone wants the space.
                  > >
                  > > ?
                  > >
                  > > Ron Jeffries
                  > > www.XProgramming.com
                  > > Wisdom begins when we discover the difference between
                  > > "That makes no sense" and "I don't understand". --Mary Doria Russell
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  > >
                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  > >
                  > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > **************************************************************
                  > ************************************
                  > The views expressed in this E-mail are those of the author
                  > and not necessarily those of Knowledge Management Software.
                  > If you are not the intended recipient or the person
                  > responsible for delivering to the intended recipient, please
                  > be advised that you have received this E-mail in error and
                  > that any use is strictly prohibited.
                  >
                  > If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify us
                  > by forwarding this E-mail to the following address:
                  >
                  > mailadmin@...
                  > **************************************************************
                  > ************************************
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
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                  >
                • Charlie Poole
                  Phil ... Have you done role-playing with with CRC cards? Used that way, they bring the out the object interactions very quickly and make it obvious where you
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 1 10:00 AM
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                    Phil

                    > Another thought on CRC. I guess in terms of what place they have,
                    > I can say a brief word. Because I recon they occupy the same place
                    > as UML. <snip/>

                    Have you done role-playing with with CRC cards? Used that way, they
                    bring the out the object interactions very quickly and make it
                    obvious where you need to make changes. The process feels quite
                    different from a group drawing diagrams at the whiteboard and it
                    benefits from the fact that users can get involved.

                    Charlie Poole
                    cpoole@...
                    www.pooleconsulting.com
                    www.charliepoole.org
                  • Phil Lewis
                    We haven t tried it this way. A lot of my team had really bad views of role-playing. It was greatly disparaged, and as UML was delivering the goods, there
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 2 12:37 AM
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                      We haven't tried it this way. A lot of my team had really bad views of
                      role-playing. It was greatly disparaged, and as UML was delivering the
                      goods, there seemed little point forcing people to do something they
                      disliked.

                      With a different team, I would probably try it.

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Charlie Poole [mailto:cpoole@...]
                      > Sent: 01 August 2002 18:00
                      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: RE: [XP] what's the deal with CRC Cards?
                      >
                      >
                      > Phil
                      >
                      > > Another thought on CRC. I guess in terms of what place they have,
                      > > I can say a brief word. Because I recon they occupy the same place
                      > > as UML. <snip/>
                      >
                      > Have you done role-playing with with CRC cards? Used that way, they
                      > bring the out the object interactions very quickly and make it
                      > obvious where you need to make changes. The process feels quite
                      > different from a group drawing diagrams at the whiteboard and it
                      > benefits from the fact that users can get involved.
                      >
                      > Charlie Poole
                      > cpoole@...
                      > www.pooleconsulting.com
                      > www.charliepoole.org
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >


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                      If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering to the intended recipient, please be advised that you have received this E-mail in error and that any use is strictly prohibited.

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