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XP, RUP and Rational tools

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  • undying love and devotion
    just got done reading extreme programming explained. very good overview, thanks kent. now for the wet work. i have seen many job postings that mix RUP,
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 4, 2002
      just got done reading extreme programming explained.
      very good overview, thanks kent.

      now for the wet work. i have seen many job postings
      that mix RUP, Rational toolsets and XP into the same
      job description. i have even seen one posting for a
      coach for a very large XP team.

      from my reading it seems that these are configurations
      wont work.

      so my question is, how well does RUP, Rational
      toolsets and XP work together? it seems to me the
      artifacts of XP are the code, tests and storys. am i
      missing something here? i would hate to take on an
      impossible assignment (like i have never done that
      before!) that mixes incompatable methodologies.

      ______________________________________________________
      Fred Parker

      __________________________________________________
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    • Ron Jeffries
      ... There are those who think that XP is an instance of RUP. See the paper on dX on the www.objectmentor.com, for example. There are those who think the
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 4, 2002
        Around Thursday, July 4, 2002, 11:55:05 AM, undying love and devotion wrote:

        > just got done reading extreme programming explained.
        > very good overview, thanks kent.

        > now for the wet work. i have seen many job postings
        > that mix RUP, Rational toolsets and XP into the same
        > job description. i have even seen one posting for a
        > coach for a very large XP team.

        > from my reading it seems that these are configurations
        > wont work.

        > so my question is, how well does RUP, Rational
        > toolsets and XP work together? it seems to me the
        > artifacts of XP are the code, tests and storys. am i
        > missing something here? i would hate to take on an
        > impossible assignment (like i have never done that
        > before!) that mixes incompatable methodologies.

        There are those who think that XP is an instance of RUP. See the paper
        on dX on the www.objectmentor.com, for example. There are those who
        think the behaviors fit the model, but that the values of XP and those
        of RUP are different enough so as to be incompatible.

        I think that in a sufficiently broad-minded RUP environment, XP might
        qualify. XP would also qualify in a sufficiently broad-minded ISO or
        CMM assessment, by the way.

        I am concerned about whether the values of Rational are consistent
        with those of XP, to the extent that a company can be said to have
        values. But RUP is mostly a menu of things one might do, with not very
        much overarching material about when and how.

        Faced with a company asking for RUP and XP together, I'd talk to the
        company and decide what they really wanted and if I could do it.

        As for the tools, they are in my opinion a waste of money and time for
        any project that's really being done in XP style, all practices all
        the time, in a room, with a customer, do dah do dah ... UNLESS there
        is an external need for the documentation that the tools provide, and
        I don't mean some PHB upstairs wanting to control things by requiring
        UML diagrams or use cases. I mean more like a government or customer
        requirement to provide such and so documentation with the software.
        And in that case, I'd bag the documentation until the end, or until
        the team needed it anyway, whichever came first.

        Just my shorthand extreme position, of course. Details if you want 'em
        and I got 'em.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Don't be afraid of pair programming:
        You may not be as good as you think you are, but
        You're not as bad as you fear.
      • Bryan Dollery
        Hi Fred, ... Tools first - I ve seen people use Rose to reverse engineer the system from time to time to produce a quick lookup diagram, or to fulfill some mad
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 4, 2002
          Hi Fred,

          > so my question is, how well does RUP, Rational
          > toolsets and XP work together? it seems to me the
          > artifacts of XP are the code, tests and storys. am i
          > missing something here? i would hate to take on an
          > impossible assignment (like i have never done that
          > before!) that mixes incompatable methodologies.

          Tools first - I've seen people use Rose to reverse engineer the system from
          time to time to produce a quick lookup diagram, or to fulfill some mad
          manager's need for 'documentation'. Some people have even been known to
          understand quicker if shown a diagram - especially useful if joining a team
          half-way-through a project.

          ClearCase - seems to be a perfectly acceptable config management system.

          XDE - built on Eclipse - has refactoring tools - and built in Rose. Nothing
          wrong here.

          Testing and profiling tools - again no problems using those for XP.

          What's left? ClearQuest (I think that's what it's called, and it's too late
          for me to go check up - the requirements management software). We don't use
          it.

          Process next -
          I don't see any technical problems in configuring RUP to be XP. Lots of
          other issues with it though. One of the principles of XP is courage - if
          you go the whole hog, and configure RUP to be XP - why waste all that time,
          just do XP - otherwise you're being cowardly.

          Experience
          I've got a client who's just buying into RUP - and it's the right
          decision - XP would not work for them. However, we're planning to overlay
          some of the XP practices, as process patterns, on top of RUP - TFD,
          Continuous Integration, PP, etc.

          We're planning on using the Rational tools too.

          As far as I can see, this is a fairly good mix. The client has a
          geographically disperse team, set up in four locations, in four countries,
          with around 120 staff in total. This is somewhere XP is not applicable - so
          we had to find something else - hence the hybrid.

          Cheers,

          Bryan
        • Brad Appleton
          Just to clarify, Rational s Requirements management tool is RequisitePro (not ClearQuest). ClearQuest is Rational s defect/change tracking system. Rational
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 4, 2002
            Just to clarify, Rational's Requirements management tool is RequisitePro (not ClearQuest). ClearQuest is Rational's defect/change tracking system. Rational also has something called "UCM" (Unified Change Management) that integrates ClearQuest and ClearCase together using activity-based version control (e.g., change-sets).

            On Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 06:01:01AM +1200, Bryan Dollery wrote:
            > Hi Fred,
            >
            > > so my question is, how well does RUP, Rational
            > > toolsets and XP work together? it seems to me the
            > > artifacts of XP are the code, tests and storys. am i
            > > missing something here? i would hate to take on an
            > > impossible assignment (like i have never done that
            > > before!) that mixes incompatable methodologies.
            >
            > Tools first - I've seen people use Rose to reverse engineer the system from
            > time to time to produce a quick lookup diagram, or to fulfill some mad
            > manager's need for 'documentation'. Some people have even been known to
            > understand quicker if shown a diagram - especially useful if joining a team
            > half-way-through a project.
            >
            > ClearCase - seems to be a perfectly acceptable config management system.
            >
            > XDE - built on Eclipse - has refactoring tools - and built in Rose. Nothing
            > wrong here.
            >
            > Testing and profiling tools - again no problems using those for XP.
            >
            > What's left? ClearQuest (I think that's what it's called, and it's too late
            > for me to go check up - the requirements management software). We don't use
            > it.
            >
            > Process next -
            > I don't see any technical problems in configuring RUP to be XP. Lots of
            > other issues with it though. One of the principles of XP is courage - if
            > you go the whole hog, and configure RUP to be XP - why waste all that time,
            > just do XP - otherwise you're being cowardly.
            >
            > Experience
            > I've got a client who's just buying into RUP - and it's the right
            > decision - XP would not work for them. However, we're planning to overlay
            > some of the XP practices, as process patterns, on top of RUP - TFD,
            > Continuous Integration, PP, etc.
            >
            > We're planning on using the Rational tools too.
            >
            > As far as I can see, this is a fairly good mix. The client has a
            > geographically disperse team, set up in four locations, in four countries,
            > with around 120 staff in total. This is somewhere XP is not applicable - so
            > we had to find something else - hence the hybrid.
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Bryan
            >
            >
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            --
            Brad Appleton <brad@...> http://www.bradapp.net/
            "Education is the ability to listen to almost anything
            without losing your temper or your self-confidence."
            -- Robert Frost
          • Mike Beedle
            ... Brad: My choices for Free Open Source versions for these tools: For requirements --- CRC Cards, a Wiki http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines Issues
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 4, 2002
              Brad Appleton wrote:
              > Just to clarify, Rational's Requirements management tool is
              > RequisitePro (not ClearQuest). ClearQuest is Rational's
              > defect/change tracking system. Rational also has something called
              > "UCM" (Unified Change Management) that integrates ClearQuest and
              > ClearCase together using activity-based version control (e.g.,
              > change-sets).

              Brad:

              My choices for Free Open Source versions for these tools:

              For requirements ---> CRC Cards, a Wiki
              http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines

              Issues management ---> IsueZilla or Bugzilla
              http://www.mozilla.org/projects/bugzilla/

              Version Control ---> CVS, WinCVS, etc.
              http://www.cvshome.org/
              http://www.cvsgui.org/download.html

              Case Tool ---> Just the code, but if you must try
              ArgoUML, ProxyDesigner, DOME
              http://argouml.tigris.org/
              http://www.codeproject.com/tools/proxydesigner.asp
              http://www.htc.honeywell.com/dome/download.htm

              IDE ---> Eclipse, Emacs
              http://www.eclipse.org
              http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs.html


              I would be interested to compare notes with you and the group on
              what you think are good choices,

              - Mike

              http://www.hipaaccelerator.com
              We need Java Developers, Coaches/hands-on architects willing to travel
              around the US.
            • undyingloveanddevotion
              Just to be a little more clear now that i have seen some answers. i was thinking along the lines of a client that might want use cases, sequence diagrams,
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 4, 2002
                Just to be a little more clear now that i have seen some answers. i
                was thinking along the lines of a client that might want use cases,
                sequence diagrams, state charts, object models, design models,
                analysis models and xp. that seems to be not very compatable to me.

                now i know rup is just a template, not a do-it-all methodology. just
                take the case of all the prep work i have just described and let me
                know about that line-up.

                as far as running the code into rose, i think that is a great idea
                to get a big picture view of what the design looks like and i
                personally do that to get a quick assesment of where i am at.

                as far as use of the toolset. i know it is really expensive and at
                times has severe technical problems with performance and
                compatability between the various components in the suite. that
                aside, i see no reason other than to run the stuff into rose to use
                the full toolset. the concept of the client sitting there and
                saying 'do this, do that, don't like that' has worked for me in the
                past. i have also done pair programming, test writing before code
                writing and incremental builds for over 10 years. i guess i am just
                not as smart as kent to put it all together and make it a
                methodology.

                so, now that i have added a little (my 2nd release on my story to
                speak in xp terms!), what do you all think?

                --- In extremeprogramming@y..., undying love and devotion
                <undyingloveanddevotion@y...> wrote:
                <snip>
                > now for the wet work. i have seen many job postings
                > that mix RUP, Rational toolsets and XP into the same
                > job description. i have even seen one posting for a
                > coach for a very large XP team.
                >
                > from my reading it seems that these are configurations
                > wont work.
                <snip>

                _______________________________________________________________
                Fred Parker
              • Georg Tuparev
                ... Do you have such a client? If not, don t waste any time waring about something that will probably never happen. If, yes, tell him the price of this
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 4, 2002
                  On Friday, July 5, 2002, at 12:07 , undyingloveanddevotion wrote:

                  > i was thinking along the lines of a client that might want use cases,
                  > sequence diagrams, state charts, object models, design models,
                  > analysis models and xp. that seems to be not very compatable to me.

                  Do you have such a client? If not, don't waste any time waring about
                  something that will probably never happen. If, yes, tell him the price
                  of this (useless) activity...

                  > now i know rup is just a template, not a do-it-all methodology. just
                  > take the case of all the prep work i have just described and let me
                  > know about that line-up.

                  Hmm. What prep work? Buying cookies, and A6 colored card? You don't need
                  Rose for this!

                  > as far as running the code into rose, i think that is a great idea
                  > to get a big picture view of what the design looks like and i
                  > personally do that to get a quick assesment of where i am at.

                  If the big picture does not fit on a A6 card you will not get it - with
                  Rose or without.

                  Georg Tuparev
                  Tuparev Technologies
                  Klipper 13
                  1186 VR Amstelveen
                  The Netherlands
                  Mobile: +31-6-55798196
                • Brad Appleton
                  ... Okay. I wasn t trying to start a comparison. I was just trying to clarify a previous stmt that confused ClearQuest with Requisite Pro. ... For me
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 4, 2002
                    On Thu, Jul 04, 2002 at 03:40:58PM -0500, Mike Beedle wrote:
                    > My choices for Free Open Source versions for these tools:

                    Okay. I wasn't trying to start a comparison. I was just trying to clarify a previous stmt that confused ClearQuest with Requisite Pro.

                    > For requirements ---> CRC Cards, a Wiki
                    > http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines

                    For me personally, I like using the issue/defect tracking tool to track requests as well. Bugzilla or Jitterbug (http://samba.anu.edu.au/cgi-bin/jitterbug) is fine by me. There are also several utilities at sourceforge. And Scarab (see scarab.tigris.org) is now minimally usable.

                    For version control, CVS is the only real OpenSource game in town (at least until subversion.tigris.org is complete :-). But one can get "free"-ish versions or Perforce or Bitkeeper under certain conditions - and in those cases I like those tools much better than CVS.

                    The rest of the ones you mentioned are good ones that I like. Here are some of the other links I was referring to above ...

                    * The "Bug Database" is free, but I'm not sure if it is industrial strength
                    http://world.std.com/~rsh/robert2.html
                    * Jikes is a rather interesting open-source project at
                    http://www10.software.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/jikes/
                    It is a JIT compiler, but has some features of interest to CM, namely dependency analysis for incremental compilation/build and automated makefile generation
                    * http://www.gjt.org/pkg/bugrat/ (another Java-based bugtracker)
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/thorax/ (java based bugtracker patterned after bugzilla, using struts)
                    * http://www.jcvs.org/ (I'm sure you know about this already)
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/scons/ (written in Python :)
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/vmaster/ (very ambitious and tries to target features especially targeted to XP - but isn't even in alpha status yet. On the other hand - since it just started, maybe there is a lot of opportunity here!!!)
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/vesta/ (definitely check this one out. It is very mature and advanced - probably overkill but interesting to look at)
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/jibe/ (very ambitious - like XP Vmaster above - and also still in the planning stage. it claims to be a Java Integrated Build Environment that supports XP practices with existing tools such as Ant, JUnit, CruiseControl, CVS and Tomcat)
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/sourcejammer/
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/trackplus/ (might be good for very simple electronic "stories" and "tasks" with traceability to bugfixes)
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/winmerge/ (nice GUI merge tool)
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/motu/ (looks potentially interesting - but still very "beta")
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/xvcs/ (yet another web-based CVS - written in Java)
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/openocs/
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/vvs/ (visual versioning system - still in planning phase)
                    * http://sourceforge.net/projects/cbe/ (java-based code-building environment)
                    The whole list is at http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=52

                    --
                    Brad Appleton <brad@...> http://www.bradapp.net/
                    "Education is the ability to listen to almost anything
                    without losing your temper or your self-confidence."
                    -- Robert Frost
                  • Mike Beedle
                    ... Brad: Thanks for all the list of tools on Open Source tools. It took me a while to grok through it. My intention was not to contrast the Rational tools
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 7, 2002
                      Brad Appleton wrote:
                      > > My choices for Free Open Source versions for these tools:
                      >
                      > Okay. I wasn't trying to start a comparison. I was just trying to
                      > clarify a previous stmt that confused ClearQuest with Requisite Pro.

                      Brad:

                      Thanks for all the list of tools on Open Source tools. It took me
                      a while to grok through it.

                      My intention was not to contrast the Rational tools with the Open
                      Source tools either -- I simply have special business needs that
                      dictate that many contributing and dependent projects at different
                      client sites coordinate contributions over the net. (Our business
                      problem is coordinating multiple Hipaa Privacy implementations that
                      use our software/services.)

                      So I am looking for the best tools to do that kind of development. My
                      list included what we are doing now:

                      Wiki for requirements
                      Tomcat running on Apache
                      Eclipse with the Tomcat Plugin
                      CVS
                      Bugzilla for issue and Backlog tracking

                      That's why my note said "Open Source" tools, because our development
                      needs are more closely matched by this style of development, and that's
                      why I am interested in finding the best choices in this area.

                      As an aside, this "business needs" are also changing our development
                      process. If you recall, the development style that I currently advocate
                      is XBreed, however, because of our business needs, very many practices that
                      come from the Open Source development style have been incorporated into
                      XBreed, so in its current state XBreed is:

                      Scrum +
                      XP +
                      Original XBreed ideas +
                      Alexanderian ideas (patterns ideas) +
                      Open Source ideas

                      (I need to spend more time updating the XBreed site ... I am trapped
                      once again in my endless dilemma ... do things or write about them ;-)

                      - Mike

                      http://www.hipaaccelerator.com

                      http://www.agilescrum.com
                      http://www.xbreed.net

                      Brad's nice collection of tools:

                      > For me personally, I like using the issue/defect tracking tool to
                      > track requests as well. Bugzilla or Jitterbug
                      > (http://samba.anu.edu.au/cgi-bin/jitterbug) is fine by me. There
                      > are also several utilities at sourceforge. And Scarab (see
                      > scarab.tigris.org) is now minimally usable.
                      >
                      > For version control, CVS is the only real OpenSource game in town
                      > (at least until subversion.tigris.org is complete :-). But one
                      > can get "free"-ish versions or Perforce or Bitkeeper under
                      > certain conditions - and in those cases I like those tools much
                      > better than CVS.
                      >
                      > The rest of the ones you mentioned are good ones that I like.
                      > Here are some of the other links I was referring to above ...
                      >
                      > * The "Bug Database" is free, but I'm not sure if it is
                      > industrial strength
                      > http://world.std.com/~rsh/robert2.html
                      > * Jikes is a rather interesting open-source project at
                      > http://www10.software.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/jikes/
                      > It is a JIT compiler, but has some features of interest to CM,
                      > namely dependency analysis for incremental compilation/build and
                      > automated makefile generation
                      > * http://www.gjt.org/pkg/bugrat/ (another Java-based bugtracker)
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/thorax/ (java based bugtracker
                      > patterned after bugzilla, using struts)
                      > * http://www.jcvs.org/ (I'm sure you know about this already)
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/scons/ (written in Python :)
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/vmaster/ (very ambitious and
                      > tries to target features especially targeted to XP - but isn't
                      > even in alpha status yet. On the other hand - since it just
                      > started, maybe there is a lot of opportunity here!!!)
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/vesta/ (definitely check this
                      > one out. It is very mature and advanced - probably overkill but
                      > interesting to look at)
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/jibe/ (very ambitious - like XP
                      > Vmaster above - and also still in the planning stage. it claims
                      > to be a Java Integrated Build Environment that supports XP
                      > practices with existing tools such as Ant, JUnit, CruiseControl,
                      > CVS and Tomcat)
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/sourcejammer/
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/trackplus/ (might be good for
                      > very simple electronic "stories" and "tasks" with traceability to
                      > bugfixes)
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/winmerge/ (nice GUI merge tool)
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/motu/ (looks potentially
                      > interesting - but still very "beta")
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/xvcs/ (yet another web-based
                      > CVS - written in Java)
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/openocs/
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/vvs/ (visual versioning system
                      > - still in planning phase)
                      > * http://sourceforge.net/projects/cbe/ (java-based code-building
                      > environment)
                      > The whole list is at:
                      > http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=52
                    • Rob Myers
                      ... My favorite UML tool (still): A big white board, and a digital camera. Explain, then capture. Rob Myers XP Coach/Programmer Mindful Software
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 7, 2002
                        > From: Bryan Dollery [mailto:Bryan.Dollery@...]
                        ...
                        > Tools first - I've seen people use Rose to reverse engineer the
                        > system from
                        > time to time to produce a quick lookup diagram, or to fulfill some mad
                        > manager's need for 'documentation'. Some people have even been known to
                        > understand quicker if shown a diagram - especially useful if
                        > joining a team
                        > half-way-through a project.


                        My favorite UML tool (still): A big white board, and a digital camera.
                        Explain, then capture.

                        Rob Myers
                        XP Coach/Programmer
                        Mindful Software
                        www.mindfulsoftware.com

                        "Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what
                        is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the
                        evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean
                        earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." --
                        Gandalf
                      • Bryan Dollery
                        Hi Rob, ... I think that the camera is a bad idea. The design should be capable of being understood - once understood it need not be remembered eidetically -
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 8, 2002
                          Hi Rob,

                          > My favorite UML tool (still): A big white board, and a digital camera.
                          > Explain, then capture.

                          I think that the camera is a bad idea.

                          The design should be capable of being understood - once understood it need
                          not be remembered eidetically - it can be synthesised at will.

                          If it isn't this simple, then you've done a bad job, and must fix it
                          immediately. Or, maybe, you've bitten off a bit much for explanation, or
                          aren't offering the information at a suitable level of abstraction for the
                          audience. In all cases, you've done something wrong.

                          A camera is like a comment - a smell - it may truly be necessary, but you
                          should question it's necessity, rather than assume it.

                          Of course, this opinion may be extreme, but, this is an 'extreme'
                          programming discussion group :)

                          Cheers,

                          Bryan
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