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  • Dave Rooney
    Hello all! I posted this on Software Reality (Ron Jefferies favourite site ;) ) as an example of XP working. I thought I should share it with this group as
    Message 1 of 16 , May 23, 2002
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      Hello all!

      I posted this on Software Reality (Ron Jefferies' favourite site ;) ) as an
      example of XP working. I thought I should share it with this group as
      well...

      My development team has just finished shipping a new release of an
      application that had a reputation for being late, full of bugs, and had a
      terrible communications gap between the developers and the client. After I
      came on board late last year, I pitched XP to the various powers that be,
      and they bought into the idea.

      We used about 9.5 of the 12 practices, delivered more functionality than was
      scoped for the release, had only 3-4 minor bugs in final acceptance testing,
      and shipped on the date we promised. I was the only team member that worked
      any OT over the 4 months, and that was about 2 hours to track down a problem
      that was driving me nuts.

      In this case we adapted XP to the local environment (Kent Beck talked about
      that!). We only had 3 developers, so Pair Programming was out of the
      question for most of the time, although we did do some. The developers were
      already co-located with the client team, so that wasn't an issue. The client
      already managed their own requirements (although not on index cards - hence
      the 9.5!), and were more than happy to sit with us to review the
      requirements and perform estimation.

      The big difference was communication and iterative development. Previously,
      the developers were explicitly told not to let the client play with the
      system (or even see screen shots) until development was done. The rationale
      was that there might be changes, so everything would be wrong (didn't make
      much sense to me either!). The client wouldn't see the system until final
      acceptance testing, during which there was a big panic to fix a whole whack
      of problems and misinterpretations of the requirements.

      By using XP (or our flavour of it), the client was actively involved - to
      their delight - during the whole development cycle. We delivered a working
      copy of the system for them to test at the end of each iteration, thus
      spreading their workload out and catching any big issues early. The client
      performed a final, full acceptance test phase, which they completed a week
      early. All in all, it was a tremendous success.

      I think the big difference here is that we adapted XP to fit the
      circumstances. We already had a client who was involved and willing to do as
      much as possible to help. It might be worth noting that our 'client' was
      actually a small group of business analysts who were more of a proxy for the
      end users. The analysts were able to make 85-90% of the decisions required,
      which made the turnaround time much faster on any questions we had. Once we
      started delivering the iterations on time, everyone bought into the idea.

      <soapbox>
      Personally, I disagree with anyone who speaks of XP in absolutes, i.e. if
      you aren't doing all 12 practices, it isn't XP. Whatever. I'd rather ship a
      clean product on time, on budget, than attain a label. Fine, then I'm not
      doing XP, I'm just making my clients happy. I can live with that! :)
      </soapbox>

      Dave Rooney
      Mayford Technologies
      http://www.mayford.ca



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dave Astels
      ... Right on the mark IMHO. As Ron s sig sometimes says: The practices are not the knowing: they are a path to the knowing. . Beck has also put out the idea
      Message 2 of 16 , May 23, 2002
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        On Thu, 2002-05-23 at 15:14, Dave Rooney wrote:

        > <soapbox>
        > Personally, I disagree with anyone who speaks of XP in absolutes, i.e. if
        > you aren't doing all 12 practices, it isn't XP. Whatever. I'd rather ship a
        > clean product on time, on budget, than attain a label. Fine, then I'm not
        > doing XP, I'm just making my clients happy. I can live with that! :)
        > </soapbox>

        Right on the mark IMHO. As Ron's sig sometimes says: "The practices are
        not the knowing: they are a path to the knowing.". Beck has also put
        out the idea of the practices as etudes... something you do to
        internalize habits. My paraphrase is "The practices are not XP, they
        are what you do to learn XP".

        It sounds like you essentially had the other 2.5 practices in place
        already.

        Dave
        --
        Dave Astels (dastels@...)
        Coauthor of "A Practical Guide to XP"
        Presenter at XP2002 (www.xp2002.org) of:
        "XP For One" tutorial
        "Refactoring with UML" paper
        CEO & Master Software Craftsman, Saorsa Development Inc.
        www.saorsa.com
        "An Agile Software Studio"
      • Kucera, Rich
        Couldn t find Software Reality...Did find Converted Theatre: http://www.satisfice.com/ worth a scan, bunch of articles. What can I say, Google turned it up
        Message 3 of 16 , May 23, 2002
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          Couldn't find Software Reality...Did find Converted Theatre:
          http://www.satisfice.com/
          worth a scan, bunch of articles. What can I say, Google turned it up as
          the 5th item...

          > From: Dave Rooney [...]
          > I posted this on Software Reality (Ron Jefferies' favourite
        • Glen B. Alleman
          http://www.softwarereality.com/index.jsp
          Message 4 of 16 , May 23, 2002
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            http://www.softwarereality.com/index.jsp

            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: Kucera, Rich [mailto:kucerar@...]
            >Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 2:56 PM
            >To: 'extremeprogramming@...'
            >Subject: RE: [XP] Doctor, it doesn't hurt as much when I...
            >
            >
            >Couldn't find Software Reality...Did find Converted Theatre:
            >http://www.satisfice.com/
            >worth a scan, bunch of articles. What can I say, Google turned it up as
            >the 5th item...
            >
            >> From: Dave Rooney [...]
            >> I posted this on Software Reality (Ron Jefferies' favourite
          • Jim Standley
            I deeply appreciate real world stories like this! That s the real value of this, um, place where we gather. I ll share a bit of my own situation and see if
            Message 5 of 16 , May 23, 2002
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              I deeply appreciate real world stories like this! That's the real value of
              this, um, place where we gather. I'll share a bit of my own situation and
              see if anybody cares to hear more.

              We just did about 15 months work to the first major release to real
              customers. It was not greenfield development, but extension and
              customization of a new purchased framework. We started with BDUF use case
              analysis and analysis object modeling per RUP. The project plan showed all
              use cases done and signed off by powers that be on some date. Then the plan
              showed design and development and test tasks by use case.

              As we developed, we found use cases too big to manage (surprised?) and I
              helped the development team get into the idea of promising smaller chunks of
              stuff sometimes called "requirements bundles." (There was just enough
              awareness and typical negative thought about XP that I avoided the word
              "story.") Dev released to QA every two weeks, and to the customer for
              review and focus groups on their turf every four. Building, tracking,
              testing by stories worked very nicely and made the last stretch of
              development more sane.

              Now a few of us are trying to sell the idea of using these story-sized bits
              from beginning to end. My goal for now is to get stories, planning game and
              iteration planning at the 2 and 4 week sizes into play before going for any
              more XP practices. Also much less modeling, because developers never looked
              at most of the models anyhow.

              We have to continue to create use cases because customers and their officer
              levels expect to see them, so I said we'll write them as records of
              conversations about stories. We haven't figured out how to replace the
              sign-off step yet. I tried to say in the time they usually would get a use
              case to sign off, they'll get an iteration. They can see we know what we're
              doing and maybe trust us to go on without the sign-off gate. Dunno if that
              will work.
            • daverooneyca
              Dave, [snip] ... Yes, exactly! ... Actually, the more I think of it, we were probably doing 10.5. We didn t (consciously) find a system metaphor since we were
              Message 6 of 16 , May 24, 2002
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                Dave,

                [snip]

                > My paraphrase is "The practices are not XP, they
                > are what you do to learn XP".

                Yes, exactly!

                > It sounds like you essentially had the other 2.5 practices in place
                > already.

                Actually, the more I think of it, we were probably doing 10.5. We
                didn't (consciously) find a system metaphor since we were working on
                a maintenance release of the system and everyone had a good idea of
                what it did. The 0.5 came from pair programing - we only had three
                developers, which makes it a little hard to pair all the time!

                The client was really good in this case. After pitching XP to my
                management, I talked to the client. They had wanted more
                communication for years, and wanted to be able to see the system and
                perform acceptance testing sooner in the development cycle. Needless
                to say, XP wasn't a tough sell to them. They already "owned" the
                requirements and were responsible for maintaining them. Hmmm...
                Maybe I should lop off another 0.25 because we didn't use index
                cards. :) The client already used an internal system for tracking
                defects that they had adapted to also track requirements. In most
                cases, an entry in this system corresponded directly to a story.
                There were some instances where an entry would be much bigger, and
                some that were actually at the task level.

                All in all, it was a great experience! We shipped on time (could
                have shipped early, but there were operational constraints), on
                budget, and it was the cleanest version of the system ever.

                One of the client reps made a very interesting observation. I had
                been discussing cost curves with her, and she said that the "stress
                curve" in also flattened in XP, or more correctly, the "stress" is
                distributed over the iterations rather than occurring towards the end
                of development (or whenever the team realizes that they're falling
                behind!). She's right - the only stressful event I can remember was
                a recalcitrant help file that didn't want to compile the day before
                the application was to be release to the roll-out group! Sounds like
                the tech writer needed Continuous Integration! ;)

                I should also note that this system was a typical PowerBuilder/Oracle
                client-server app, not a sexy Java/J2EE web application. That gives
                more credence to the notion that the people are more important than
                the tools or process.

                Dave Rooney
                Mayford Technologies
                http://www.mayford.ca
              • daverooneyca
                Dave, [snip] ... Yes, exactly! ... Actually, the more I think of it, we were probably doing 10.5. We didn t (consciously) find a system metaphor since we were
                Message 7 of 16 , May 24, 2002
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                  Dave,

                  [snip]

                  > My paraphrase is "The practices are not XP, they
                  > are what you do to learn XP".

                  Yes, exactly!

                  > It sounds like you essentially had the other 2.5 practices in place
                  > already.

                  Actually, the more I think of it, we were probably doing 10.5. We
                  didn't (consciously) find a system metaphor since we were working on
                  a maintenance release of the system and everyone had a good idea of
                  what it did. The 0.5 came from pair programing - we only had three
                  developers, which makes it a little hard to pair all the time!

                  The client was really good in this case. After pitching XP to my
                  management, I talked to the client. They had wanted more
                  communication for years, and wanted to be able to see the system and
                  perform acceptance testing sooner in the development cycle. Needless
                  to say, XP wasn't a tough sell to them. They already "owned" the
                  requirements and were responsible for maintaining them. Hmmm...
                  Maybe I should lop off another 0.25 because we didn't use index
                  cards. :) The client already used an internal system for tracking
                  defects that they had adapted to also track requirements. In most
                  cases, an entry in this system corresponded directly to a story.
                  There were some instances where an entry would be much bigger, and
                  some that were actually at the task level.

                  All in all, it was a great experience! We shipped on time (could
                  have shipped early, but there were operational constraints), on
                  budget, and it was the cleanest version of the system ever.

                  One of the client reps made a very interesting observation. I had
                  been discussing cost curves with her, and she said that the "stress
                  curve" in also flattened in XP, or more correctly, the "stress" is
                  distributed over the iterations rather than occurring towards the end
                  of development (or whenever the team realizes that they're falling
                  behind!). She's right - the only stressful event I can remember was
                  a recalcitrant help file that didn't want to compile the day before
                  the application was to be release to the roll-out group! Sounds like
                  the tech writer needed Continuous Integration! ;)

                  I should also note that this system was a typical PowerBuilder/Oracle
                  client-server app, not a sexy Java/J2EE web application. That gives
                  more credence to the notion that the people are more important than
                  the tools or process.

                  Dave Rooney
                  Mayford Technologies
                  http://www.mayford.ca
                • Laurent Bossavit
                  ... Ah yes. James Bach s site definitely gets my vote over Matt Stephens . James is one of the guys who knows what the hell they re talking about. (Where did
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 24, 2002
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                    > Couldn't find Software Reality...Did find Converted Theatre:
                    > http://www.satisfice.com/

                    Ah yes. James Bach's site definitely gets my vote over Matt
                    Stephens'. James is one of the guys who knows what the hell they're
                    talking about. (Where did the 'Theatre' bit come from tho ?)

                    I can easily imagine Matt, of whom I know too little besides the
                    funny but ill-informed rants against XP on his websites, as one of
                    those too overwhelmed by their own fears and the scars of past
                    project injuries to react intelligently to novel ideas.

                    I've made a wonderful discovery recently : Matt works for my
                    employer. If not him, then someone enough like him, or like the
                    person I can most charitably imagine him to be, that it makes no
                    difference. Call him E.

                    E. is a smart, patient, honest, careful, open-minded guy, who's told
                    me more than once "I'd rather be fired than do XP". We do, however,
                    get along quite well. I've learned quite a few things from him...
                    But.

                    For the past few weeks I've been watching him get mired in one of
                    these projects that are doomed from the start. I don't want to get
                    into details right now (I'm saving some war stories for face-to-face
                    war-story sessions in Alghero next week), let me just say that his
                    manager told him at the beginning that no, there wasn't much point in
                    using CVS, they were only two guys working on this and it wouldn't be
                    a very long project anyway. That set the tone; now it's a mess, E.
                    tells me.

                    Anyway, this recent experience suggests to me that to dislike XP, a
                    person doesn't have to wear swastika T-shirts or eat babies for
                    breakfast. But many of the people who view XP with a jaundiced eyes
                    are people who report past or present problems. I suppose that if I
                    had a problem, I wouldn't think it odd to discuss it openly and
                    honestly with people who might be of assistance.

                    Hmm... I might get to meet James on the occasion of a trip of his to
                    London this summer. Perhaps I should also extend an invitation to
                    Matt - we've had one occasion to converse in a very indirect way,
                    when I reviewed something of his for a publisher. I'm sure we should
                    meet for real.

                    Cheers,

                    -[Morendil]-
                    Tomorrow will be canceled due to lack of interest.
                  • Laurent Bossavit
                    ... Ack. Matt Stephens host rejects my emails as spam . O the irony. Anyone know another email address of Matt s ? Otherwise I ll just give up. Cheers,
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 24, 2002
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                      > London this summer. Perhaps I should also extend an invitation to
                      > Matt - we've had one occasion to converse in a very indirect way,

                      Ack. Matt Stephens' host rejects my emails as "spam". O the irony.

                      Anyone know another email address of Matt's ? Otherwise I'll just
                      give up.

                      Cheers,

                      -[Morendil]-
                      This tagline reserved for internal kernel use.
                    • Kucera, Rich
                      Couldn t find Software Reality...did find Converted Vaudeville Theater would ve been funnier. Satisfice is run out of a converted vaudville theater out in
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 24, 2002
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                        "Couldn't find Software Reality...did find Converted Vaudeville Theater"
                        would've been funnier.

                        Satisfice is run out of a converted vaudville theater out in virginia
                        somewhere. That in itself offers some kind of hope, don't you think?

                        Who can name this movie: "There is no sanctuary...there is no
                        sanctuary...uh, did find a converted vaudeville theater though"

                        > From: Laurent Bossavit [...]
                        > talking about. (Where did the 'Theatre' bit come from tho ?)
                      • Dossy
                        ... Don t give up. Proxy. Want someone to send the mail to the address you currently have on your behalf? -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 24, 2002
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                          On 2002.05.24, Laurent Bossavit <laurent@...> wrote:
                          > > London this summer. Perhaps I should also extend an invitation to
                          > > Matt - we've had one occasion to converse in a very indirect way,
                          >
                          > Ack. Matt Stephens' host rejects my emails as "spam". O the irony.
                          >
                          > Anyone know another email address of Matt's ? Otherwise I'll just
                          > give up.

                          Don't give up. Proxy. Want someone to send the mail to the address
                          you currently have on your behalf?

                          -- Dossy

                          --
                          Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
                          Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
                          "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
                          folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
                        • Kucera, Rich
                          Code Generation? Didn t Oracle already plow millions into this concept? I m seeing a Joe Walsh video...
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 24, 2002
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                            Code Generation? Didn't Oracle already plow millions into this concept?
                            I'm seeing a Joe Walsh video...

                            > From: Glen B. Alleman [...]
                            > http://www.softwarereality.com/index.jsp
                            >
                            > >-----Original Message-----
                            > >From: Kucera, Rich [mailto:kucerar@...]
                            > >Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 2:56 PM
                            > >To: 'extremeprogramming@...'
                            > >Subject: RE: [XP] Doctor, it doesn't hurt as much when I...
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >Couldn't find Software Reality...Did find Converted Theatre:
                            > >http://www.satisfice.com/
                            > >worth a scan, bunch of articles. What can I say, Google
                            > turned it up as
                            > >the 5th item...
                            > >
                            > >> From: Dave Rooney [...]
                            > >> I posted this on Software Reality (Ron Jefferies' favourite
                            >
                          • Laurent Bossavit
                            ... Thanks for volunteering. Go ahead. (Just forward my original post.) Cheers, -[Morendil]- This tagline reserved for internal kernel use.
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 24, 2002
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                              > Don't give up. Proxy. Want someone to send the mail to the address
                              > you currently have on your behalf?

                              Thanks for volunteering. Go ahead. (Just forward my original post.)

                              Cheers,

                              -[Morendil]-
                              This tagline reserved for internal kernel use.
                            • Dossy
                              ... Done it. Cc ed you. Hope it works ... -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@panoptic.com Panoptic Computer Network
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 24, 2002
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                                On 2002.05.24, Laurent Bossavit <laurent@...> wrote:
                                > > Don't give up. Proxy. Want someone to send the mail to the address
                                > > you currently have on your behalf?
                                >
                                > Thanks for volunteering. Go ahead. (Just forward my original post.)

                                Done it. Cc'ed you. Hope it works ...

                                -- Dossy

                                --
                                Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
                                Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
                                "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
                                folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
                              • Sven Dowideit
                                have any of you heard of LINC ? its a Unisys product that does both code gen and database schema creation and automagical re-organisation. really nice - for
                                Message 15 of 16 , May 28, 2002
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                                  have any of you heard of LINC ?

                                  its a Unisys product that does both code gen and database schema
                                  creation and automagical re-organisation.

                                  really nice - for unisys mainframe, WinNT and various Unixes..

                                  shame about the lack of marketing - its been around for 10-15 years..

                                  sven

                                  On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 00:52, Kucera, Rich wrote:
                                  > Code Generation? Didn't Oracle already plow millions into this concept?
                                  > I'm seeing a Joe Walsh video...
                                  >
                                  > > From: Glen B. Alleman [...]
                                  > > http://www.softwarereality.com/index.jsp
                                  > >
                                  > > >-----Original Message-----
                                  > > >From: Kucera, Rich [mailto:kucerar@...]
                                  > > >Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 2:56 PM
                                  > > >To: 'extremeprogramming@...'
                                  > > >Subject: RE: [XP] Doctor, it doesn't hurt as much when I...
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >Couldn't find Software Reality...Did find Converted Theatre:
                                  > > >http://www.satisfice.com/
                                  > > >worth a scan, bunch of articles. What can I say, Google
                                  > > turned it up as
                                  > > >the 5th item...
                                  > > >
                                  > > >> From: Dave Rooney [...]
                                  > > >> I posted this on Software Reality (Ron Jefferies' favourite
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                  >
                                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                  >
                                  > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Dave Rooney
                                  I ve seen the name... Is it Open Source?! :) Dave Rooney Mayford Technologies http://www.mayford.ca ... From: Sven Dowideit [mailto:sven@hsa.com.au] Sent:
                                  Message 16 of 16 , May 28, 2002
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                                    I've seen the name... Is it Open Source?! :)

                                    Dave Rooney
                                    Mayford Technologies
                                    http://www.mayford.ca


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Sven Dowideit [mailto:sven@...]
                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 6:03 AM
                                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [XP] Doctor, it doesn't hurt as much when I...


                                    have any of you heard of LINC ?

                                    its a Unisys product that does both code gen and database schema
                                    creation and automagical re-organisation.

                                    really nice - for unisys mainframe, WinNT and various Unixes..

                                    shame about the lack of marketing - its been around for 10-15 years..

                                    sven

                                    On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 00:52, Kucera, Rich wrote:
                                    > Code Generation? Didn't Oracle already plow millions into this concept?
                                    > I'm seeing a Joe Walsh video...
                                    >
                                    > > From: Glen B. Alleman [...]
                                    > > http://www.softwarereality.com/index.jsp
                                    > >
                                    > > >-----Original Message-----
                                    > > >From: Kucera, Rich [mailto:kucerar@...]
                                    > > >Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 2:56 PM
                                    > > >To: 'extremeprogramming@...'
                                    > > >Subject: RE: [XP] Doctor, it doesn't hurt as much when I...
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >Couldn't find Software Reality...Did find Converted Theatre:
                                    > > >http://www.satisfice.com/
                                    > > >worth a scan, bunch of articles. What can I say, Google
                                    > > turned it up as
                                    > > >the 5th item...
                                    > > >
                                    > > >> From: Dave Rooney [...]
                                    > > >> I posted this on Software Reality (Ron Jefferies' favourite
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                    >
                                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                    >
                                    > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


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