Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Big Visible Charts

Expand Messages
  • Ron Jeffries
    Does your team use any Big Visible Charts to display status? Do you have any big project-related pictures on the wall? If so, what are they? Are there charts
    Message 1 of 19 , May 12, 2002
      Does your team use any Big Visible Charts to display status? Do you
      have any big project-related pictures on the wall? If so, what are
      they?

      Are there charts that you wish your team had? What are they and why?

      Are there problems for which you wish you knew how to make a chart?
      What are they?

      What else are your thoughts on Big Visible Charts and your project?

      If a pattern begins to emerge here, we might set up a poll. For now,
      I'm more interested in the discussion than the statistics.

      Speak!

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Logic is overrated as a system of thought.
    • Dossy
      ... Not yet. ... I ve recently tasked our QA guy to start producing a BVC. We ll see if he ever figures out how to do it ... I ve asked him to create a BVC of
      Message 2 of 19 , May 12, 2002
        On 2002.05.12, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
        > Does your team use any Big Visible Charts to display status? Do you
        > have any big project-related pictures on the wall? If so, what are
        > they?

        Not yet.

        > Are there charts that you wish your team had? What are they and why?

        I've recently tasked our QA guy to start producing a BVC. We'll
        see if he ever figures out how to do it ...

        I've asked him to create a BVC of "known defects per iteration".
        I told him not to put any commentary or annotation on it -- just
        the two axes ("defects" and "iteration number") and graph the
        points.

        I'm going to see what it looks like and potentially use it as
        leverage to get my Customer to write acceptance tests and then
        as leverage to get my QA guy to automate them.

        I'm suspecting that if we show the number of defects to be high,
        then for an iteration ask the Customer to humor me and write
        acceptance tests for just the new Stories we're going to work
        on in that iteration, that we'll see that the number of defects
        will start to go down ... and I'm hoping that'll be enough
        encouragement to the Customer to get test-infected.

        > Are there problems for which you wish you knew how to make a chart?
        > What are they?

        The problems are which charts are useful or important and I think
        this is probably situation-dependent. There may be some BVC's that
        are generally useful though -- having a list of them might be
        nice.

        > What else are your thoughts on Big Visible Charts and your project?

        I think they could help. Ron says they might help.

        -- Dossy

        --
        Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
        Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
        "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
        folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
      • Laurent Bossavit
        ... I did it, and they resisted that more than just about anything else. That told me something about the culture in which we worked... I didn t push it. I
        Message 3 of 19 , May 12, 2002
          > Does your team use any Big Visible Charts to display status?

          I did it, and they resisted that more than just about anything else.

          That told me something about the culture in which we worked... I
          didn't push it. I promise I'll try again some other time. By then I
          won't be employed by the same company any more, I'm afraid.

          -[Morendil]-
          Tomorrow will be canceled due to lack of interest.
        • Erik Meade
          ... A lot of my teams use BVCs, sometimes they are just written up on the whiteboards. The type things we track are number of Unit and Acceptance Tests; don t
          Message 4 of 19 , May 12, 2002
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Ron Jeffries [mailto:ronjeffries@...]
            > Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:37 AM
            > To: extremeprogramming
            > Subject: [XP] Big Visible Charts
            >
            >
            > Does your team use any Big Visible Charts to display status? Do you
            > have any big project-related pictures on the wall? If so, what are
            > they?

            A lot of my teams use BVCs, sometimes they are just written up on the
            whiteboards. The type things we track are number of Unit and Acceptance
            Tests; don't really track it over time though, just the current count,
            which gets updated at the Iteration planning meeting. We also use Pairing
            Charts, a matrix of everyone's name across the top and one side.

            Teams also either use the white board or put the Task cards up and cross
            them off, put a dot on them, or pull them down and tear them up as they
            are completed.

            The team that Jacques works with also writes up "lessons learned".

            We also have the Object Mentor XP posters, one system architecture poster,
            and one poster of the VP playing guitar with a Mariachi band.

            > Are there charts that you wish your team had? What are they and why?

            I wish we kept a histogram of the charts. I want people to see the
            trends in the charts.

            > Are there problems for which you wish you knew how to make a chart?
            > What are they?

            Yes, refactoring (done and needed), reuse of objects across teams,
            and some way to show that customers who are more involved get better
            products.

            > What else are your thoughts on Big Visible Charts and your project?
            >
            > If a pattern begins to emerge here, we might set up a poll. For now,
            > I'm more interested in the discussion than the statistics.
            >
            > Speak!
            >
            > Ron Jeffries
            > www.XProgramming.com
            > Logic is overrated as a system of thought.

            Erik Meade
            http://junit.org
            emeade@...
          • Brian C. Robinson
            ... I have a spreadsheet that has velocity for each of our iterations. It used to also track individual velocity but that caused some problems so now I m only
            Message 5 of 19 , May 13, 2002
              On Sun, 12 May 2002, Ron Jeffries wrote:

              > Does your team use any Big Visible Charts to display status? Do you
              > have any big project-related pictures on the wall? If so, what are
              > they?

              I have a spreadsheet that has velocity for each of our iterations. It
              used to also track individual velocity but that caused some problems so
              now I'm only tracking team velocity. I like it because it gives us a
              graphical idea about how well we're doing. If our velocity drops (or
              raises alot, like that'd happen), we can think about why.
            • Charlie Poole
              Laurent, ... I ve seen BVC s used by managers to put pressure on the team. To be useful to the team, I think they need to show things that the team either
              Message 6 of 19 , May 13, 2002
                Laurent,

                > > Does your team use any Big Visible Charts to display status?
                >
                > I did it, and they resisted that more than just about anything else.
                >
                > That told me something about the culture in which we worked... I
                > didn't push it. I promise I'll try again some other time. By then I
                > won't be employed by the same company any more, I'm afraid.

                I've seen BVC's used by managers to put pressure on the team. To
                be useful to the team, I think they need to show things that the
                team either wants to see, or wants others to see.

                Hard to do that in some cultures.

                Charlie Poole
                cpoole@...
              • Ron Jeffries
                Big Visible Charts Ron Jeffries 02/29/2004 It s time to revisit the topic of Big Visible Charts. Display important project information not in some formal way,
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 29, 2004
                  Big Visible Charts
                  Ron Jeffries
                  02/29/2004

                  It's time to revisit the topic of Big Visible Charts. Display important
                  project information not in some formal way, not on the web, not in
                  PowerPoint, but in charts on the wall that no one can miss.

                  http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/BigVisibleCharts.htm

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  You don't want to sell me waterfall.
                  You want to go home and rethink your life.
                • Edmund Schweppe
                  ... Good stuff! There is one thing that I hope you ll talk more about in future iterations, though. Suppose I ve decided to have a BVC that tracks the number
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 29, 2004
                    Ron Jeffries wrote:

                    > Big Visible Charts
                    > Ron Jeffries
                    > 02/29/2004
                    >
                    > It's time to revisit the topic of Big Visible Charts. Display important
                    > project information not in some formal way, not on the web, not in
                    > PowerPoint, but in charts on the wall that no one can miss.
                    >
                    > http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/BigVisibleCharts.htm

                    Good stuff!

                    There is one thing that I hope you'll talk more about in future
                    iterations, though. Suppose I've decided to have a BVC that tracks the
                    number of Acceptance Tests passing and number of Acceptance Tests
                    running over time. The "Casual is Better" paragraph gave me the
                    impression that it's inherently better for me to manually update that
                    BVC than it would be for me to automatically print a new one every day.
                    I don't think that it *would* be inherently better - but before I'd
                    argue the point, I'd like to see if that *is* in fact your point.

                    > Ron Jeffries
                    > www.XProgramming.com
                    > You don't want to sell me waterfall.
                    > You want to go home and rethink your life.

                    "Waterfalls are pretty; but do you really want your project going over
                    Niagara Falls in a barrel?" - Me

                    --
                    Edmund Schweppe -- schweppe@... -- http://schweppe.home.tiac.net
                    The opinions expressed herein are at best coincidentally related to
                    those of any past, present or future employer.
                  • Ron Jeffries
                    ... That is my point. Before you argue it, please take a piece of graph paper, a pencil, and two markers. Imagine that today is the Nth day, and out about N on
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 29, 2004
                      On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 12:51:08 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:

                      > There is one thing that I hope you'll talk more about in future
                      > iterations, though. Suppose I've decided to have a BVC that tracks the
                      > number of Acceptance Tests passing and number of Acceptance Tests
                      > running over time. The "Casual is Better" paragraph gave me the
                      > impression that it's inherently better for me to manually update that
                      > BVC than it would be for me to automatically print a new one every day.
                      > I don't think that it *would* be inherently better - but before I'd
                      > argue the point, I'd like to see if that *is* in fact your point.

                      That is my point.

                      Before you argue it, please take a piece of graph paper, a pencil, and two
                      markers. Imagine that today is the Nth day, and out about N on the paper,
                      make two marks with the pencil, representing the number of tests now in
                      existence, and the number that are running. Color from the x-axis up to the
                      first mark green, and from the first mark to the second red. Time yourself.
                      Call that time Tmark.

                      Then write whatever program you have in mind for doing this in an automated
                      fashion. Time that process (calling it Tcode), no fair guessing, I don't
                      trust estimates. Then measure the time it takes to run it, print the new
                      graph, and hang it up on the wall. (Call that Trun). If Trun > Tmark, which
                      it surely is, I rest my case.

                      If Trun < Tmark, first I'd like to understand how that's possible. But
                      anyway, then divide Tmark-Trun into Tcode and tell us how many days of hand
                      marking you have to save before doing the programming and the lesser but
                      still real work of updating will be worth it.

                      Then factor in the value of a big chart instead of a little one, one that
                      is proactive rather than one that has to be looked at on
                      www.mywikis.com/ourcompany/ourprojectwiki/graphsOfInterest.asp .

                      I'm not even counting how much fun it is to play with colored markers ...

                      OK. Argue. ;->

                      Ron Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      The practices are not the knowing: they are a path to the knowing.
                    • Edmund Schweppe
                      ... Okay. Your point is that it *is* inherently better to manually update my BVC than to automatically print a new one every day. Just wanted to make sure. ...
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 29, 2004
                        Ron Jeffries wrote:

                        > On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 12:51:08 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:
                        >> There is one thing that I hope you'll talk more about in future
                        >> iterations, though. Suppose I've decided to have a BVC that tracks
                        >> the number of Acceptance Tests passing and number of Acceptance
                        >> Tests running over time. The "Casual is Better" paragraph gave me
                        >> the impression that it's inherently better for me to manually
                        >> update that BVC than it would be for me to automatically print a
                        >> new one every day. I don't think that it *would* be inherently
                        >> better - but before I'd argue the point, I'd like to see if that
                        >> *is* in fact your point.
                        > That is my point.

                        Okay. Your point is that it *is* inherently better to manually update my
                        BVC than to automatically print a new one every day. Just wanted to make
                        sure.

                        > Before you argue it, please take a piece of graph paper, a pencil,
                        > and two markers. Imagine that today is the Nth day, and out about N
                        > on the paper, make two marks with the pencil, representing the number
                        > of tests now in existence, and the number that are running. Color
                        > from the x-axis up to the first mark green, and from the first mark
                        > to the second red. Time yourself. Call that time Tmark.
                        >
                        > Then write whatever program you have in mind for doing this in an
                        > automated fashion. Time that process (calling it Tcode), no fair
                        > guessing, I don't trust estimates. Then measure the time it takes to
                        > run it, print the new graph, and hang it up on the wall. (Call that
                        > Trun). If Trun > Tmark, which it surely is, I rest my case.

                        Well, I'm not going to do this *exact* experiment, for a couple of
                        reasons. First off, I don't have any graph paper on hand, so Tmark would
                        have to include the time required for a run to Staples. Not exactly
                        representative, I'd say. Secondly, if I'm reading your suggestion
                        correctly, the output of both the manual and automated processes would
                        be a piece of "regular" paper (8.5x11, in my case), rather than a Big
                        Visual Chart, so it's not exactly a valid comparison of BVC generation
                        times.

                        Instead, I timed myself doing two separate activities. First, I hung a
                        piece of 27x34 Avery Static Images (aka "instant whiteboard") on the
                        wall. This took ten seconds. Let's call this Thang.

                        Next, I drew a graph showing running and passing tests as of day N-1 on
                        the abovementioned instant whiteboard. I did not time this activity.
                        Finally, I plotted values for day N on the graph, and colored in the
                        areas between the x-axis and the new values with appropriate colors.
                        That took a minute. I assume that's what was meant by Tmark.

                        > If Trun < Tmark, first I'd like to understand how that's possible.

                        Obviously, from the above, Thang < Tmark - it was easier to hang
                        something up than to add new markings, color in areas, etc.

                        But you didn't ask about Thang, you asked about Trun. As defined, Trun
                        includes the time spent waiting for the automated process to run and for
                        the printer to print. I'll define the run & print time as Tprint; thus
                        Trun = Tprint + Thang.

                        Now, I hereby claim without explicit proof that it is possible to
                        automate the run & print process to execute at zero-dark-thirty, such
                        that I don't have to do anything except walk to the printer, grab the
                        BVC of the day, and hang it on the wall. In other words, even if Tprint
                        is significantly greater than zero, I don't care because *my* labor
                        associated with Tprint *is* zero. The only work *I* have to do is Thang.
                        (Well, and Tcode - but see below.)

                        > But anyway, then divide Tmark-Trun into Tcode and tell us how many
                        > days of hand marking you have to save before doing the programming
                        > and the lesser but still real work of updating will be worth it.

                        Hey, if I value the challenge of doing the programming, that's a
                        negative cost! Hmmm, if I've already got the tests running
                        automatically, all I need to learn is how to build a PDF, then add a
                        task to the buildfile, and ...

                        > Then factor in the value of a big chart instead of a little one, one
                        > that is proactive rather than one that has to be looked at on
                        > www.mywikis.com/ourcompany/ourprojectwiki/graphsOfInterest.asp .

                        A couple of companies ago, the place where I worked had multiple HP
                        DesignJet plotters on the floor, specifically to allow development and
                        design teams to make Big Visual Charts from electronic documents. One of
                        their better ideas.

                        Actually, if you had an overnight process generating GIFs and PDFs for
                        your "key measures", you could have a best-of-both-worlds situation. The
                        GIFs go on the project website for the one-in-a-million chance of a
                        pointy-haired boss actually looking at it; the PDFs go on the website,
                        get plotted and hung as BVCs. Should a pointy-haired boss see the BVC
                        and ask to have that information made available online, point him to the
                        website ...

                        > I'm not even counting how much fun it is to play with colored markers
                        > ...

                        No argument here :-)

                        > OK. Argue. ;->

                        OK. See above ;->

                        All kidding aside, I think that *starting* with manually-built BVCs is a
                        *great* idea. I might quibble about whether it's better to use a
                        whiteboard, or newsprint, or giant Post-It(tm) notes, or just scribble
                        on the wallpaper - but that's really just noise. The important thing is
                        to start radiating information, and not to get bogged down in the
                        details. (I think we're in violent agreement here.)

                        On the other hand, I'm not ready to buy a claim that it's *inherently*
                        better to do one's BVCs manually - because I can see some definite value
                        in generating them automatically under certain circumstances.

                        Maybe you could say some more about why it's *inherently* better to do
                        them manually...

                        --
                        Edmund Schweppe -- schweppe@... -- http://schweppe.home.tiac.net
                        The opinions expressed herein are at best coincidentally related to
                        those of any past, present or future employer.
                      • Adrian Howard
                        On 29 Feb 2004, at 18:22, Ron Jeffries wrote: [snip] ... The niggler in me wants ignore Tcode, since it should be a one-off task in a stable development
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 29, 2004
                          On 29 Feb 2004, at 18:22, Ron Jeffries wrote:
                          [snip]
                          > Then write whatever program you have in mind for doing this in an
                          > automated
                          > fashion. Time that process (calling it Tcode), no fair guessing, I
                          > don't
                          > trust estimates.

                          The niggler in me wants ignore Tcode, since it should be a one-off task
                          in a stable development environment (like going to go buy the graph
                          paper). I've not touched the code that counts and logs the number of
                          passing/failing tests for several projects.

                          > Then measure the time it takes to run it, print the new
                          > graph, and hang it up on the wall. (Call that Trun). If Trun > Tmark,
                          > which
                          > it surely is, I rest my case.

                          How about a 50" flat screen hung on the wall displaying the graph -
                          maybe making happy/sad noises depending on how it changes over time?

                          No print time. Instant updates throughout the day.

                          (nobody mentioned budget :-)

                          [snip]
                          > Then factor in the value of a big chart instead of a little one, one
                          > that
                          > is proactive rather than one that has to be looked at on
                          > www.mywikis.com/ourcompany/ourprojectwiki/graphsOfInterest.asp .

                          unknown host www.mywikis.com ?

                          > I'm not even counting how much fun it is to play with colored markers
                          > ...

                          And who doesn't *love* the smell of marker pen in the morning!

                          > OK. Argue. ;->

                          Only to be annoying ;-)

                          Mostly just to be annoying anyway....

                          For me the good things I get from BVCs are:
                          - continuous visibility
                          - public
                          - easy of use
                          - interactivity

                          Whiteboards, post-it notes and index cards are the most cost effective
                          ways I have to make BVCs. That's why I love 'em to death.

                          I think production time is the wrong thing to emphasize. Manual and
                          automatic are not *that* far apart. If BVCs are just seen a technology
                          / cost / time issue I think their best points are being missed. Five
                          minutes lost making a hardcopy isn't worth arguing about. Losing a
                          hugely effective interactive communication medium is.

                          That said, having the daily hardcopy on the wall is better than having
                          it emailed to you every day. And having it emailed to you every day is
                          better than having it on a web page you have to go visit. And having it
                          on a web page all the time is better than having the project manager
                          make a power-point presentation of progress once a month.... and so
                          on...

                          Hmmm... possibly edging into rant mode... time for a coffee break ;-)

                          Cheers,

                          Adrian
                        • Ron Jeffries
                          ... Well, no. If I had noticed and thought about inherently I might have hedged. But not very much. I think it is a very good assumption that beginning with
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 29, 2004
                            On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 3:18:08 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:

                            >> On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 12:51:08 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:
                            >>> There is one thing that I hope you'll talk more about in future
                            >>> iterations, though. Suppose I've decided to have a BVC that tracks
                            >>> the number of Acceptance Tests passing and number of Acceptance
                            >>> Tests running over time. The "Casual is Better" paragraph gave me
                            >>> the impression that it's inherently better for me to manually
                            >>> update that BVC than it would be for me to automatically print a
                            >>> new one every day. I don't think that it *would* be inherently
                            >>> better - but before I'd argue the point, I'd like to see if that
                            >>> *is* in fact your point.
                            >> That is my point.

                            > Okay. Your point is that it *is* inherently better to manually update my
                            > BVC than to automatically print a new one every day. Just wanted to make
                            > sure.

                            Well, no. If I had noticed and thought about "inherently" I might have
                            hedged. But not very much.

                            I think it is a very good assumption that beginning with manual charts and
                            updating them manually is the better way. Surely there are exceptions ...

                            >> ...
                            > Well, I'm not going to do this *exact* experiment, for a couple of
                            > reasons. First off, I don't have any graph paper on hand, so Tmark would
                            > have to include the time required for a run to Staples. Not exactly
                            > representative, I'd say. Secondly, if I'm reading your suggestion
                            > correctly, the output of both the manual and automated processes would
                            > be a piece of "regular" paper (8.5x11, in my case), rather than a Big
                            > Visual Chart, so it's not exactly a valid comparison of BVC generation
                            > times.

                            Oh, I suspect that it's close enough to make the point ... but OK ...

                            > Instead, I timed myself doing two separate activities. First, I hung a
                            > piece of 27x34 Avery Static Images (aka "instant whiteboard") on the
                            > wall. This took ten seconds. Let's call this Thang.

                            > Next, I drew a graph showing running and passing tests as of day N-1 on
                            > the abovementioned instant whiteboard. I did not time this activity.
                            > Finally, I plotted values for day N on the graph, and colored in the
                            > areas between the x-axis and the new values with appropriate colors.
                            > That took a minute. I assume that's what was meant by Tmark.

                            Yes. A minute? Wow. You must work very neatly. ;->

                            >> If Trun < Tmark, first I'd like to understand how that's possible.

                            > Obviously, from the above, Thang < Tmark - it was easier to hang
                            > something up than to add new markings, color in areas, etc.

                            > But you didn't ask about Thang, you asked about Trun. As defined, Trun
                            > includes the time spent waiting for the automated process to run and for
                            > the printer to print. I'll define the run & print time as Tprint; thus
                            > Trun = Tprint + Thang.

                            > Now, I hereby claim without explicit proof that it is possible to
                            > automate the run & print process to execute at zero-dark-thirty, such
                            > that I don't have to do anything except walk to the printer, grab the
                            > BVC of the day, and hang it on the wall. In other words, even if Tprint
                            > is significantly greater than zero, I don't care because *my* labor
                            > associated with Tprint *is* zero. The only work *I* have to do is Thang.
                            > (Well, and Tcode - but see below.)

                            Yes. So if it really takes you less time to go and get the printout and
                            hang it than it does to color it in, it could be more efficient. But next
                            time don't color with the pen in your mouth ...

                            >> But anyway, then divide Tmark-Trun into Tcode and tell us how many
                            >> days of hand marking you have to save before doing the programming
                            >> and the lesser but still real work of updating will be worth it.

                            > Hey, if I value the challenge of doing the programming, that's a
                            > negative cost! Hmmm, if I've already got the tests running
                            > automatically, all I need to learn is how to build a PDF, then add a
                            > task to the buildfile, and ...

                            Uh huh ...

                            >> Then factor in the value of a big chart instead of a little one, one
                            >> that is proactive rather than one that has to be looked at on
                            >> www.mywikis.com/ourcompany/ourprojectwiki/graphsOfInterest.asp .

                            > A couple of companies ago, the place where I worked had multiple HP
                            > DesignJet plotters on the floor, specifically to allow development and
                            > design teams to make Big Visual Charts from electronic documents. One of
                            > their better ideas.

                            Maybe ...

                            > Actually, if you had an overnight process generating GIFs and PDFs for
                            > your "key measures", you could have a best-of-both-worlds situation. The
                            > GIFs go on the project website for the one-in-a-million chance of a
                            > pointy-haired boss actually looking at it; the PDFs go on the website,
                            > get plotted and hung as BVCs. Should a pointy-haired boss see the BVC
                            > and ask to have that information made available online, point him to the
                            > website ...

                            Yes. But now we have to talk about whether official looking charts actually
                            work better than hand-drawn ones. I wonder ...

                            >> I'm not even counting how much fun it is to play with colored markers
                            >> ...

                            > No argument here :-)

                            >> OK. Argue. ;->

                            > OK. See above ;->

                            > All kidding aside, I think that *starting* with manually-built BVCs is a
                            > *great* idea. I might quibble about whether it's better to use a
                            > whiteboard, or newsprint, or giant Post-It(tm) notes, or just scribble
                            > on the wallpaper - but that's really just noise. The important thing is
                            > to start radiating information, and not to get bogged down in the
                            > details. (I think we're in violent agreement here.)

                            Yes, quite so.

                            > On the other hand, I'm not ready to buy a claim that it's *inherently*
                            > better to do one's BVCs manually - because I can see some definite value
                            > in generating them automatically under certain circumstances.

                            > Maybe you could say some more about why it's *inherently* better to do
                            > them manually...

                            No. As long as everyone starts manually and updates that way for a while, I
                            trust that they'll figure out what to do next ...

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            He who will not apply new remedies must expect old evils. -- Francis Bacon
                          • Doug Swartz
                            ... Well.... We have one project manager who, from my perspective, is quite 1n1l retentive. We managed to inherit one of those big DesignJet printers from a
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 29, 2004
                              Sunday, February 29, 2004, 2:18:08 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:

                              > On the other hand, I'm not ready to buy a claim that it's *inherently*
                              > better to do one's BVCs manually - because I can see some definite value
                              > in generating them automatically under certain circumstances.

                              > Maybe you could say some more about why it's *inherently* better to do
                              > them manually...

                              Well....

                              We have one project manager who, from my perspective, is quite
                              1n1l retentive. We managed to inherit one of those big
                              DesignJet printers from a failed Internet start-up that the
                              corporation bought. This project manager has gotten in the
                              habit of periodically printing some of the BVCs for the
                              project she's on. They look gorgeous!

                              And... I hate them! To me, they're sterile, and much less
                              believable than the hand-written ones, with new scribbles
                              layered on each day to show progress. Maybe it's just me, but
                              the hand-written ones made with different color markers, with
                              multiple people's handwriting, with the big "CODED" written on
                              top of the card name by the programmers, with "DONE" layered
                              on top of that when the customer and tester agree, have much
                              more visceral impact when I walk in the room. They show works
                              in progress, while the fancy printed ones just look like
                              advertisements to me. It's probably the cynic in me, but I
                              don't trust advertisements.

                              Therefore, for me, it's somehow *inherently* better to do
                              them manually.


                              --

                              Doug Swartz
                              daswartz@...
                            • Ron Jeffries
                              ... Here s a great big kiss for you, Doug! X Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The fact that we know more today, and are more capable
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 29, 2004
                                On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 8:49:49 PM, Doug Swartz wrote:

                                > And... I hate them! To me, they're sterile, and much less
                                > believable than the hand-written ones, with new scribbles
                                > layered on each day to show progress. Maybe it's just me, but
                                > the hand-written ones made with different color markers, with
                                > multiple people's handwriting, with the big "CODED" written on
                                > top of the card name by the programmers, with "DONE" layered
                                > on top of that when the customer and tester agree, have much
                                > more visceral impact when I walk in the room. They show works
                                > in progress, while the fancy printed ones just look like
                                > advertisements to me. It's probably the cynic in me, but I
                                > don't trust advertisements.

                                > Therefore, for me, it's somehow *inherently* better to do
                                > them manually.

                                Here's a great big kiss for you, Doug! <font size="44">X</font>

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                The fact that we know more today, and are more capable today,
                                is good news about today, not bad news about yesterday.
                              • Keith Ray
                                Excel is quicker. Type numbers in, make it graph them. ... -- C. Keith Ray
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 1, 2004
                                  Excel is quicker. Type numbers in, make it graph them.

                                  On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 02:18 PM, Adrian Howard wrote:

                                  >> Then write whatever program you have in mind for doing this in an
                                  >>
                                  --
                                  C. Keith Ray
                                  <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/blog/index.html>
                                  <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/xpminifaq.html>
                                  <http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/resume2.html>
                                • Donald F. McLean
                                  Although, if you have a graphing class library available (we use Sitraka s JClass Char), it s nearly as easy - and you get alot more control - Excel can, at
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 1, 2004
                                    Although, if you have a graphing class library available (we use
                                    Sitraka's JClass Char), it's nearly as easy - and you get alot more
                                    control - Excel can, at times, be very reluctant to actually do what you
                                    want it to.

                                    Keith Ray wrote:

                                    > Excel is quicker. Type numbers in, make it graph them.
                                    >
                                    > On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 02:18 PM, Adrian Howard wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>>Then write whatever program you have in mind for doing this in an
                                    >>>
                                  • Edmund Schweppe
                                    ... [ regarding building BVCs manually or automatically ] ... Maybe I ll keep disagreeing with Ron, then ... :-) -- Edmund Schweppe -- schweppe@ieee.org --
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 1, 2004
                                      Ron Jeffries wrote:
                                      > On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 8:49:49 PM, Doug Swartz wrote:

                                      [ regarding building BVCs manually or automatically ]

                                      >> Therefore, for me, it's somehow *inherently* better to do them
                                      >> manually.
                                      > Here's a great big kiss for you, Doug! <font size="44">X</font>

                                      Maybe I'll keep disagreeing with Ron, then ... :-)

                                      --
                                      Edmund Schweppe -- schweppe@... -- http://schweppe.home.tiac.net
                                      The opinions expressed herein are at best coincidentally related to
                                      those of any past, present or future employer.
                                    • Edmund Schweppe
                                      ... I might be a little bit concerned about team dynamics if charts automatically generated by the team were considered less believable than charts manually
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 1, 2004
                                        Doug Swartz wrote:

                                        > Sunday, February 29, 2004, 2:18:08 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:
                                        >>On the other hand, I'm not ready to buy a claim that it's *inherently*
                                        >>better to do one's BVCs manually - because I can see some definite value
                                        >>in generating them automatically under certain circumstances.
                                        >>Maybe you could say some more about why it's *inherently* better to do
                                        >>them manually...
                                        > We have one project manager who, from my perspective, is quite
                                        > 1n1l retentive. We managed to inherit one of those big
                                        > DesignJet printers from a failed Internet start-up that the
                                        > corporation bought. This project manager has gotten in the
                                        > habit of periodically printing some of the BVCs for the
                                        > project she's on. They look gorgeous!
                                        > And... I hate them! To me, they're sterile, and much less
                                        > believable than the hand-written ones, with new scribbles
                                        > layered on each day to show progress.

                                        I might be a little bit concerned about team dynamics if charts
                                        automatically generated by the team were considered less believable than
                                        charts manually generated by the team.

                                        On the other hand, I was looking for reasons (other than pure
                                        efficiency, which I thought to be rather weak) for preferring hand-built
                                        BVCs over automatically-generated ones, and now I've heard several. Now
                                        I know more than I did a few days ago. Which, as Ron's automatic .sig
                                        generator is so fond of noting, is a good thing.

                                        Ron, might I suggest you include some of these reasons in your BVC page?

                                        --
                                        Edmund Schweppe -- schweppe@... -- http://schweppe.home.tiac.net
                                        The opinions expressed herein are at best coincidentally related to
                                        those of any past, present or future employer.
                                      • Ron Jeffries
                                        ... Yes, I ll be looking to do that if/when I update the page, as I hope to do if my computer ever comes back ... Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Testing
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Mar 1, 2004
                                          On Monday, March 1, 2004, at 11:32:13 AM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:

                                          > Ron, might I suggest you include some of these reasons in your BVC page?

                                          Yes, I'll be looking to do that if/when I update the page, as I hope to do
                                          if my computer ever comes back ...

                                          Ron Jeffries
                                          www.XProgramming.com
                                          Testing should be done...
                                          (a) ...from the beginning of a project.
                                          (b) ...starting at some point in the middle of a project.
                                          (c) ...on those who think it should only be done at the end of a project.
                                          -- A poster spotted at Rational
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.