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Re: [XP] Cutter IT Summit

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... Couldn t find this on Amazon, so couldn t set up a reservation. I hope when this comes out someone will give a shout. ... Book ordered. What was the
    Message 1 of 19 , May 1, 2002
      Around Wednesday, May 1, 2002, 3:33:36 PM, kentlbeck wrote:

      > * Rob Austin (Harvard BSchool) talked about managing agile projects
      > like a theater director directs a play. A book about the topic is due
      > soon, and I will be giving a copy to every manager of teams I coach.

      Couldn't find this on Amazon, so couldn't set up a reservation. I hope
      when this comes out someone will give a shout.

      > * Rob Thomsett is a wild man. I was pretty suspicious when I saw he
      > had a workshop entitled "Extreme Project Management". He earned a
      > worldwide, non-exclusive license to our beloved adjective by
      > terrifying me with a question from the floor while I was on a panel.
      > He has a book out on Radical Project Leadership (or Management) which
      > I have but have not yet read.

      Book ordered. What was the question?

      > * While Ed Yourdon was talking about "good enough software", I
      > realized that in XP we produce "big enough software". Instead of the
      > usual biz game of waiting until you have just enough stability to
      > ship, the business side of XP teams need to learn how to wait until
      > they have just enough scope to ship. "Big enough" puts the emphasis
      > on scope, where it belongs, instead of on quality, which isn't a
      > control variable.

      Very interesting. The whole "good enough" thing ticks me off, as
      anyone who has been in the way of my bug database discussion has
      experienced. Perfect is good enough. Anything less and there's
      guaranteed to be a bug in there that the bastxxxxcustomer wants out.
      Might as well just make it as good as we can, save all that debugging
      time.


      Sounds like I made a mistake in not attending. Not my first. I hope
      not my last. Thanks for the report!

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      It's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking
      than to think your way into a new way of acting. --Millard Fuller
    • kentlbeck
      ... projects ... due ... coach. ... hope ... I m not sure they have a title yet. The work seemed pretty advanced (it s Rob and a director/drama professor
      Message 2 of 19 , May 2, 2002
        --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
        > Around Wednesday, May 1, 2002, 3:33:36 PM, kentlbeck wrote:
        >
        > > * Rob Austin (Harvard BSchool) talked about managing agile
        projects
        > > like a theater director directs a play. A book about the topic is
        due
        > > soon, and I will be giving a copy to every manager of teams I
        coach.
        >
        > Couldn't find this on Amazon, so couldn't set up a reservation. I
        hope
        > when this comes out someone will give a shout.

        I'm not sure they have a title yet. The work seemed pretty advanced
        (it's Rob and a director/drama professor collaborating).

        > > * Rob Thomsett is a wild man. I was pretty suspicious when I
        saw he
        > > had a workshop entitled "Extreme Project Management". He earned a
        > > worldwide, non-exclusive license to our beloved adjective by
        > > terrifying me with a question from the floor while I was on a
        panel.
        > > He has a book out on Radical Project Leadership (or Management)
        which
        > > I have but have not yet read.
        >
        > Book ordered. What was the question?

        More like challenge. (Put on your best wildly gesticulating
        Australian persona.) "It's not about stories. It's about movies."

        My mind immediately split in two. One half was busily defending the
        XP party line. The other half was going, "Movies. I never thought of
        that. Hmmm, that means..." Fortunately my mouth didn't engage in this
        interval. Scared me, though.

        > > * While Ed Yourdon was talking about "good enough software", I
        > > realized that in XP we produce "big enough software". Instead of
        the
        > > usual biz game of waiting until you have just enough stability to
        > > ship, the business side of XP teams need to learn how to wait
        until
        > > they have just enough scope to ship. "Big enough" puts the
        emphasis
        > > on scope, where it belongs, instead of on quality, which isn't a
        > > control variable.
        >
        > Very interesting. The whole "good enough" thing ticks me off, as
        > anyone who has been in the way of my bug database discussion has
        > experienced. Perfect is good enough. Anything less and there's
        > guaranteed to be a bug in there that the bastxxxxcustomer wants out.
        > Might as well just make it as good as we can, save all that
        debugging
        > time.

        From Sheila Brady (legendary Apple project manager) channeled by
        Alistair--how is debugging like being made love to by an 800 pound
        gorilla? In neither case are you in control of when it will stop.

        Kent
      • Ellen Ferlazzo
        ... Watch out! That s one of Cooper s analogies... :) (See The Inmates are Running the Asylum). Essentially, Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard,
        Message 3 of 19 , May 2, 2002
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: kentlbeck [mailto:kentbeck@...]
          >More like challenge. (Put on your best wildly gesticulating
          >Australian persona.) "It's not about stories. It's about movies."
          >
          >My mind immediately split in two. One half was busily defending the
          >XP party line. The other half was going, "Movies. I never thought of
          >that. Hmmm, that means..." Fortunately my mouth didn't
          >engage in this
          >interval. Scared me, though.

          Watch out! That's one of Cooper's analogies... :) (See The Inmates are
          Running the Asylum). Essentially,

          Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard, design, hire
          actors
          Preproduction in software: interaction design, storyboard, hire
          programmers

          Production in movies: cameras rolling, directors, actors,
          technicians
          Production in software: programmers code, managers "fetch pizza"
          (his words)

          Post production in movies: editing, soundtrack, marketing
          Post production in software: debugging, docs, marketing

          E l l e n F e r l a z z o
          www.sprez.com
        • Phlip
          ... Ouch. I m just an actor reading a script. Ouch. The irony is one of my colleagues (also a published author on software process) was out acting in an indie
          Message 4 of 19 , May 2, 2002
            Ellen Ferlazzo sez:

            > Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard, design, hire
            > actors
            > Preproduction in software: interaction design, storyboard, hire
            > programmers

            Ouch. I'm just an actor reading a script. Ouch.

            The irony is one of my colleagues (also a published author on software
            process) was out acting in an indie movie today.

            --
            Phlip
            http://www.greencheese.org/SonseOne
            -- This machine last rebooted during the Second Millenium --
          • cmanaster@t-online.de
            ... Is it just a bit part? --Carl --
            Message 5 of 19 , May 2, 2002
              Phlip writes:

              >Ellen Ferlazzo sez:
              >
              > > Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard, design, hire
              > > actors
              > > Preproduction in software: interaction design, storyboard, hire
              > > programmers
              >
              >Ouch. I'm just an actor reading a script. Ouch.

              Is it just a bit part?

              <ducking and running for cover>
              --Carl
              --
            • Mark Collins-Cope
              Chaps, Here s how I did it (blowing quite a few thousand £ a few years ago on making 1/3 of a film): 1 write script. 2 analyse script for cost implications. 3
              Message 6 of 19 , May 3, 2002
                Chaps,

                Here's how I did it (blowing quite a few thousand £ a few years ago on
                making 1/3 of a film):
                1 write script.
                2 analyse script for cost implications.
                3 rework script to reduce costs.
                4 iterate on 2 & 3until pulling hair out.
                5 refine script to develop detailed shooting schedule (location focused
                shooting plan).

                6 (in parallel with 3,4,5)
                - review applications from literally 100 actors who are willing to work for
                nothing.
                - find director of photography (d-o-p) (also not paid)

                7 work through script with d-o-p - estimate timings for shooting.
                8 send out call sheets.
                9 start filming.
                ... lots of this ... takes much longer than estimated.
                10. tracking costs, realise I've drastically under-estimated (main
                incorrect assumption being a shooting ratio of 6-1 which turned out to be
                16-1, and boy is film processing expensive).
                11. run out of money (but at least get a fully edited version of what's
                been shot done).
                12. rework costs, get a much truer picture of overall costs.
                13. try and raise money (lots of this).
                14. fail to raise money.
                15. give up (keep 1/3 of film to show grandchildren) and put it down to
                (bad) experience.

                Is there a moral in this?
                Ciao,
                Mark.


                At 03-05-02, you wrote:
                >Phlip writes:
                >
                > >Ellen Ferlazzo sez:
                > >
                > > > Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard, design, hire
                > > > actors
                > > > Preproduction in software: interaction design, storyboard, hire
                > > > programmers
                > >
                > >Ouch. I'm just an actor reading a script. Ouch.
                >
                >Is it just a bit part?
                >
                ><ducking and running for cover>
                >--Carl
                >--
                >
                >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                >
                >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                >
                >ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                >
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                >
                >
                >
              • Laurent Bossavit
                ... ...doing much better at that than most software projects... ;) ... Make this temporarily give up . If you were passionate enough to sink that much time
                Message 7 of 19 , May 3, 2002
                  > 11. run out of money (but at least get a fully edited version of what's
                  > been shot done).

                  ...doing much better at that than most software projects...

                  ;)

                  > 15. give up (keep 1/3 of film to show grandchildren) and put it down
                  > to (bad) experience.

                  Make this "temporarily give up". If you were passionate enough to
                  sink that much time and effort into it, I would bet that one day you
                  will find a way to complete that work. As Jeffries is wont to say, I
                  might well lose, but that's the way I'd want to bet.

                  Maybe some of your grandkids will be very rich and will fund you
                  out of a sense of family obligations, humoring an old man past his
                  prime. Or who knows, maybe they will even *like* the film. ;)
                • Kay A. Pentecost
                  Hi, Phlip, ... You, no, never. You d be the Cinematographer. Actually, actors in film are not equivalent to programmers. Contrary to public opinion, and the
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 3, 2002
                    Hi, Phlip,

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Phlip [mailto:pplumlee@...]
                    > Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:08 PM
                    > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [XP] Cutter IT Summit
                    >
                    >
                    > Ellen Ferlazzo sez:
                    >
                    > > Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard, design, hire
                    > > actors
                    > > Preproduction in software: interaction design, storyboard, hire
                    > > programmers
                    >
                    > Ouch. I'm just an actor reading a script. Ouch.

                    You, no, never. You'd be the Cinematographer.

                    Actually, actors in film are not equivalent to programmers. Contrary to
                    public opinion, and the wishful thinking of actors, actors are really a
                    pretty unimportant part of film production. I would equate them more to
                    Index Cards, Class Diagrams, and other artifacts. Although, occasionally,
                    an actor is a database. With all the attendent problems.

                    I suspect that PHBs would like to think programmers were as disposable as
                    actors...

                    Kay
                  • tranzpupy
                    ... Contrary to ... really a ... more to ... occasionally, ... Which is why ... That s the actor I meant who was the database -- And that pulling power isn t
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 3, 2002
                      --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Mark Collins-Cope <markcc@r...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >Actually, actors in film are not equivalent to programmers.
                      Contrary to
                      > >public opinion, and the wishful thinking of actors, actors are
                      really a
                      > >pretty unimportant part of film production. I would equate them
                      more to
                      > >Index Cards, Class Diagrams, and other artifacts. Although,
                      occasionally,
                      > >an actor is a database. With all the attendent problems.
                      >
                      > Except for that all important pulling power at the box office.
                      Which is why
                      > they get paid so much (if they have the pulling power).

                      That's the actor I meant who was the "database" -- And that pulling
                      power isn't a constant, is it?

                      But most actors don't get treated all that well on the set. I see the
                      crew (including the director, camera crew, lighting crew, grips,
                      gaffers, script girls, make up, wardrobe, and on into editing as
                      being more parallel to programmers.

                      Kay
                    • tranzpupy
                      Hey, Mark, ... on ... focused ... work for ... out to be ... what s ... down to ... Yeah. Looking back, now, it was a lot of fun, wasn t it? And a lot of
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 3, 2002
                        Hey, Mark,

                        --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Mark Collins-Cope <markcc@r...> wrote:
                        > Chaps,
                        >
                        > Here's how I did it (blowing quite a few thousand £ a few years ago
                        on
                        > making 1/3 of a film):
                        > 1 write script.
                        > 2 analyse script for cost implications.
                        > 3 rework script to reduce costs.
                        > 4 iterate on 2 & 3until pulling hair out.
                        > 5 refine script to develop detailed shooting schedule (location
                        focused
                        > shooting plan).
                        >
                        > 6 (in parallel with 3,4,5)
                        > - review applications from literally 100 actors who are willing to
                        work for
                        > nothing.
                        > - find director of photography (d-o-p) (also not paid)
                        >
                        > 7 work through script with d-o-p - estimate timings for shooting.
                        > 8 send out call sheets.
                        > 9 start filming.
                        > ... lots of this ... takes much longer than estimated.
                        > 10. tracking costs, realise I've drastically under-estimated (main
                        > incorrect assumption being a shooting ratio of 6-1 which turned
                        out to be
                        > 16-1, and boy is film processing expensive).
                        > 11. run out of money (but at least get a fully edited version of
                        what's
                        > been shot done).
                        > 12. rework costs, get a much truer picture of overall costs.
                        > 13. try and raise money (lots of this).
                        > 14. fail to raise money.
                        > 15. give up (keep 1/3 of film to show grandchildren) and put it
                        down to
                        > (bad) experience.
                        >
                        > Is there a moral in this?

                        Yeah. Looking back, now, it was a lot of fun, wasn't it? And a lot
                        of really hard work...

                        I'm assuming you wrote the script and directed.... and produced.
                        That's a hard job -- known in the industry as a "triple-headed
                        genius."

                        Even if you lost money, you managed to produce a visible product.
                        Something most people never do. Where did you shoot this film?

                        Kay
                      • Mark Collins-Cope
                        ... Except for that all important pulling power at the box office. Which is why they get paid so much (if they have the pulling power). Ciao, Mark.
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 3, 2002
                          >Actually, actors in film are not equivalent to programmers. Contrary to
                          >public opinion, and the wishful thinking of actors, actors are really a
                          >pretty unimportant part of film production. I would equate them more to
                          >Index Cards, Class Diagrams, and other artifacts. Although, occasionally,
                          >an actor is a database. With all the attendent problems.

                          Except for that all important pulling power at the box office. Which is why
                          they get paid so much (if they have the pulling power).

                          Ciao,
                          Mark.
                        • Mark Collins-Cope
                          Hi Kay, Actually I just produced. The director wrote the script, and did the music. He was the creative one. I spent my time telling him we couldn t afford
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 3, 2002
                            Hi Kay,

                            Actually I just produced. The director wrote the script, and did the music.
                            He was the creative one. I spent my time telling him we couldn't afford
                            things :-)

                            But yes, it was a lot of fun. It was filmed in the UK around London
                            (including on the underground) and the South East of England.

                            Ciao,
                            Mark.

                            At 03-05-02, you wrote:
                            >Hey, Mark,
                            >
                            >--- In extremeprogramming@y..., Mark Collins-Cope <markcc@r...> wrote:
                            > > Chaps,
                            > >
                            > > Here's how I did it (blowing quite a few thousand £ a few years ago
                            >on
                            > > making 1/3 of a film):
                            > > 1 write script.
                            > > 2 analyse script for cost implications.
                            > > 3 rework script to reduce costs.
                            > > 4 iterate on 2 & 3until pulling hair out.
                            > > 5 refine script to develop detailed shooting schedule (location
                            >focused
                            > > shooting plan).
                            > >
                            > > 6 (in parallel with 3,4,5)
                            > > - review applications from literally 100 actors who are willing to
                            >work for
                            > > nothing.
                            > > - find director of photography (d-o-p) (also not paid)
                            > >
                            > > 7 work through script with d-o-p - estimate timings for shooting.
                            > > 8 send out call sheets.
                            > > 9 start filming.
                            > > ... lots of this ... takes much longer than estimated.
                            > > 10. tracking costs, realise I've drastically under-estimated (main
                            > > incorrect assumption being a shooting ratio of 6-1 which turned
                            >out to be
                            > > 16-1, and boy is film processing expensive).
                            > > 11. run out of money (but at least get a fully edited version of
                            >what's
                            > > been shot done).
                            > > 12. rework costs, get a much truer picture of overall costs.
                            > > 13. try and raise money (lots of this).
                            > > 14. fail to raise money.
                            > > 15. give up (keep 1/3 of film to show grandchildren) and put it
                            >down to
                            > > (bad) experience.
                            > >
                            > > Is there a moral in this?
                            >
                            >Yeah. Looking back, now, it was a lot of fun, wasn't it? And a lot
                            >of really hard work...
                            >
                            >I'm assuming you wrote the script and directed.... and produced.
                            >That's a hard job -- known in the industry as a "triple-headed
                            >genius."
                            >
                            >Even if you lost money, you managed to produce a visible product.
                            >Something most people never do. Where did you shoot this film?
                            >
                            >Kay
                            >
                            >
                            >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                            >
                            >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                            >
                            >ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                            >
                            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Mark Collins-Cope
                            ... Well, it was over 5 years ago now. So unfortunately the continuity will have been completely lost (actors gotten older, etc), and one of the major
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 3, 2002
                              At 03-05-02, you wrote:
                              > > 11. run out of money (but at least get a fully edited version of what's
                              > > been shot done).
                              >
                              >...doing much better at that than most software projects...
                              >
                              >;)
                              >
                              > > 15. give up (keep 1/3 of film to show grandchildren) and put it down
                              > > to (bad) experience.
                              >Make this "temporarily give up". If you were passionate enough to
                              >sink that much time and effort into it, I would bet that one day you
                              >will find a way to complete that work. As Jeffries is wont to say, I
                              >might well lose, but that's the way I'd want to bet.

                              Well, it was over 5 years ago now. So unfortunately the continuity will
                              have been completely lost (actors gotten older, etc), and one of the major
                              locations was turned into a block of flats (it was a rather old gothic
                              mansion that was decaying rapidly)! I will give it another go at some point
                              though (different project).

                              More seriously, some genuine lessons that maybe do cross relate to software
                              development:
                              1) we were inexperienced, and should have worked more iteratively. If we'd
                              done some shooting and editing it together (integration) early on, we'd
                              have realised we were going to be way over budget.Perhaps we'd have decided
                              to make a complete 30 minute film instead then (more likely we'd have put
                              our heads into the sand :-)! We'd have also learned more in the early days
                              and applied it better.
                              2) scale makes a big difference. The d-o-p had worked previously on
                              advertisments, and we assumed his take on the timing estimates was going to
                              be accurate. But he was used to 2 day intensive filming sessions, which
                              didn't work when extended to a 30 day shoot - people couldn't keep it up.
                              3) don't fund your own projects (a good rule in software I think :-)!

                              Ciao,
                              Mark.
                            • kevinbsmith
                              ... Fergus O Connell also uses this metaphor in his How to Run Successful Projects books (subtitled The Silver Bullet ). I ve read editions one and two, but
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 4, 2002
                                --- In extremeprogramming@y..., "kentlbeck" <kentbeck@c...> wrote:
                                > More like challenge. (Put on your best wildly gesticulating
                                > Australian persona.) "It's not about stories. It's about
                                > movies."
                                >
                                > My mind immediately split in two. One half was busily
                                > defending the XP party line. The other half was going,
                                > "Movies. I never thought of that. Hmmm, that means..."

                                Fergus O'Connell also uses this metaphor in his "How to Run
                                Successful Projects" books (subtitled "The Silver Bullet").
                                I've read editions one and two, but not three.
                                Unfortunately, they're not here in front of me.

                                His concept is that if a producer and director can lay
                                out an entire movie production in such detail months in
                                advance, we should be able to do the same thing for
                                software development.

                                I used to think this was a great idea, before I found XP.
                                Now, I realize that even if it is possible to fully
                                understand and plan a large project to that level of
                                detail, it probably isn't a good idea. The Customer is
                                unlikely to have the same desires by the end of the
                                project as they had at the beginning. Embrace change, and
                                all of that.

                                Also, with a movie, as with building construction, you
                                HAVE to make solid plans because your medium is not
                                malleable like software. If you have hired a thousand
                                extras for a scene, and gotten New York City to close
                                down several streets, by golly you had better shoot the
                                scene on that day! Or, imagine if half way through filming
                                Spider-man, they decided that his suit should be puffy
                                and green, instead of sleek and red?

                                And, of course, budget overruns are still common in movie
                                production.

                                So, I suggest we toss the movie metaphor "in the can".

                                O'Connell also uses Antarctic expeditions as a metaphor,
                                mosly comparing Amundsen (successful) and Scott
                                (unsuccessful). This seems somewhat better, because it
                                relies on having enough resources on hand, and reacting
                                to unexpected events. But if you really feel like your
                                development team is (metaphorically) thousands of miles
                                from the rest of the world, with no possibility of
                                outside help or guidance, I pity you.

                                Kevin
                              • James Goebel
                                ... Has anyone been watching Project Green Light on HBO? Being too cheap to pay for premium channels the only episodes I have seen are while I am on the road
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 6, 2002
                                  on 5/4/02 12:08 PM, kevinbsmith at kevinxp@... wrote:

                                  > --- In extremeprogramming@y..., "kentlbeck" <kentbeck@c...> wrote:
                                  >> More like challenge. (Put on your best wildly gesticulating
                                  >> Australian persona.) "It's not about stories. It's about
                                  >> movies."
                                  >>
                                  >> My mind immediately split in two. One half was busily
                                  >> defending the XP party line. The other half was going,
                                  >> "Movies. I never thought of that. Hmmm, that means..."
                                  >
                                  > Fergus O'Connell also uses this metaphor in his "How to Run
                                  > Successful Projects" books (subtitled "The Silver Bullet").
                                  > ...
                                  >
                                  > His concept is that if a producer and director can lay
                                  > out an entire movie production in such detail months in
                                  > advance, we should be able to do the same thing for
                                  > software development.
                                  >
                                  > I used to think this was a great idea, before I found XP.
                                  > Now, I realize that even if it is possible to fully
                                  > understand and plan a large project to that level of
                                  > detail, it probably isn't a good idea. ...
                                  >
                                  > Also, with a movie, as with building construction, you
                                  > HAVE to make solid plans because your medium is not
                                  > malleable like software.

                                  Has anyone been watching Project Green Light on HBO? Being too cheap to pay
                                  for premium channels the only episodes I have seen are while I am on the
                                  road visiting clients.

                                  The parallels between the project management issues of the Project Green
                                  Light movie and the project management issues in software projects seem very
                                  strong to me. Different specialists try to optimize different parts of the
                                  process, while decisions are made without looking forward enough to see what
                                  feature/scene was inadvertently moved outside the allocated budget.

                                  Other documentaries that I have seen on the topic of movie-making often show
                                  how the feedback provided by reviewing the prior day's film greatly affect
                                  what the director and producer do next.

                                  James Goebel
                                  www.menloinnovations.com
                                • Larry Constantine
                                  Ron, ... I still wish you were presenting at forUSE 2002. But at least you will not make the mistake of not attending, right? :-) --Larry Constantine forUSE
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 8, 2002
                                    Ron,

                                    > Sounds like I made a mistake in not attending. Not my first. I hope
                                    > not my last. Thanks for the report!

                                    I still wish you were presenting at forUSE 2002. But at least you will not
                                    make the mistake of not attending, right? :-)

                                    --Larry Constantine
                                    forUSE 2002 | 25-28 August 2002
                                    Sponsored by Constantine & Lockwood, Ltd.
                                    www.foruse.com/2002
                                  • Ron Jeffries
                                    ... Hmm, it s not on my list ... I suppose it should be. It s not like I m earning any money, I mize well go have fun. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com You
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 8, 2002
                                      Around Wednesday, May 8, 2002, 1:00:28 PM, Larry Constantine wrote:

                                      >> Sounds like I made a mistake in not attending. Not my first. I hope
                                      >> not my last. Thanks for the report!

                                      > I still wish you were presenting at forUSE 2002. But at least you will not
                                      > make the mistake of not attending, right? :-)

                                      Hmm, it's not on my list ... I suppose it should be. It's not like I'm
                                      earning any money, I mize well go have fun.

                                      Ron Jeffries
                                      www.XProgramming.com
                                      You can observe a lot by watching. --Yogi Berra
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