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RE: [XP] Cutter IT Summit

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  • Glen B. Alleman
    Adding to Kent, In Robert Austin and Richard Nolan s 1998 seminal paper (at least seminal for us folks in the field) titled How to Manage ERP Projects, many
    Message 1 of 19 , May 1, 2002
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      Adding to Kent,

      In Robert Austin and Richard Nolan's 1998 seminal paper (at least seminal
      for us folks in the field) titled "How to Manage ERP Projects," many of the
      described practices would now be considered "agile." Much of Austin's work
      is still "new" to the ears of the end users, but agile ERP deployment is
      gaining understanding slowly.

      Glen B. Alleman
      Niwot Ridge Consulting
      4347 Pebble Beach Drive
      Niwot, Colorado 80503
      PO Box 8657
      Breckenridge, CO 80424
      +1.720.406.9164 Office
      +1.720.406.9293 Fax
      +1.720.641.0980 Worldwide Mobile
      galleman@... <mailto:galleman@...>
      www.niwotridge.com <http://www.niwotridge.com/>


      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: kentlbeck [mailto:kentbeck@...]
      >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:34 PM
      >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [XP] Cutter IT Summit
      >
      >
      >I'm on my way back from the Cutter IT Summit. What a mind bending few
      >days. Here are a few random thoughts/impressions:
      > * Rob Austin (Harvard BSchool) talked about managing agile projects
      >like a theater director directs a play. A book about the topic is due
      >soon, and I will be giving a copy to every manager of teams I coach.
      > * Rob Thomsett is a wild man. I was pretty suspicious when I saw he
      >had a workshop entitled "Extreme Project Management". He earned a
      >worldwide, non-exclusive license to our beloved adjective by
      >terrifying me with a question from the floor while I was on a panel.
      >He has a book out on Radical Project Leadership (or Management) which
      >I have but have not yet read.
      > * While Ed Yourdon was talking about "good enough software", I
      >realized that in XP we produce "big enough software". Instead of the
      >usual biz game of waiting until you have just enough stability to
      >ship, the business side of XP teams need to learn how to wait until
      >they have just enough scope to ship. "Big enough" puts the emphasis
      >on scope, where it belongs, instead of on quality, which isn't a
      >control variable.
      >
      >Off to airplanes.
      >
      >Kent
    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Couldn t find this on Amazon, so couldn t set up a reservation. I hope when this comes out someone will give a shout. ... Book ordered. What was the
      Message 2 of 19 , May 1, 2002
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        Around Wednesday, May 1, 2002, 3:33:36 PM, kentlbeck wrote:

        > * Rob Austin (Harvard BSchool) talked about managing agile projects
        > like a theater director directs a play. A book about the topic is due
        > soon, and I will be giving a copy to every manager of teams I coach.

        Couldn't find this on Amazon, so couldn't set up a reservation. I hope
        when this comes out someone will give a shout.

        > * Rob Thomsett is a wild man. I was pretty suspicious when I saw he
        > had a workshop entitled "Extreme Project Management". He earned a
        > worldwide, non-exclusive license to our beloved adjective by
        > terrifying me with a question from the floor while I was on a panel.
        > He has a book out on Radical Project Leadership (or Management) which
        > I have but have not yet read.

        Book ordered. What was the question?

        > * While Ed Yourdon was talking about "good enough software", I
        > realized that in XP we produce "big enough software". Instead of the
        > usual biz game of waiting until you have just enough stability to
        > ship, the business side of XP teams need to learn how to wait until
        > they have just enough scope to ship. "Big enough" puts the emphasis
        > on scope, where it belongs, instead of on quality, which isn't a
        > control variable.

        Very interesting. The whole "good enough" thing ticks me off, as
        anyone who has been in the way of my bug database discussion has
        experienced. Perfect is good enough. Anything less and there's
        guaranteed to be a bug in there that the bastxxxxcustomer wants out.
        Might as well just make it as good as we can, save all that debugging
        time.


        Sounds like I made a mistake in not attending. Not my first. I hope
        not my last. Thanks for the report!

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        It's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking
        than to think your way into a new way of acting. --Millard Fuller
      • kentlbeck
        ... projects ... due ... coach. ... hope ... I m not sure they have a title yet. The work seemed pretty advanced (it s Rob and a director/drama professor
        Message 3 of 19 , May 2, 2002
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          --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
          > Around Wednesday, May 1, 2002, 3:33:36 PM, kentlbeck wrote:
          >
          > > * Rob Austin (Harvard BSchool) talked about managing agile
          projects
          > > like a theater director directs a play. A book about the topic is
          due
          > > soon, and I will be giving a copy to every manager of teams I
          coach.
          >
          > Couldn't find this on Amazon, so couldn't set up a reservation. I
          hope
          > when this comes out someone will give a shout.

          I'm not sure they have a title yet. The work seemed pretty advanced
          (it's Rob and a director/drama professor collaborating).

          > > * Rob Thomsett is a wild man. I was pretty suspicious when I
          saw he
          > > had a workshop entitled "Extreme Project Management". He earned a
          > > worldwide, non-exclusive license to our beloved adjective by
          > > terrifying me with a question from the floor while I was on a
          panel.
          > > He has a book out on Radical Project Leadership (or Management)
          which
          > > I have but have not yet read.
          >
          > Book ordered. What was the question?

          More like challenge. (Put on your best wildly gesticulating
          Australian persona.) "It's not about stories. It's about movies."

          My mind immediately split in two. One half was busily defending the
          XP party line. The other half was going, "Movies. I never thought of
          that. Hmmm, that means..." Fortunately my mouth didn't engage in this
          interval. Scared me, though.

          > > * While Ed Yourdon was talking about "good enough software", I
          > > realized that in XP we produce "big enough software". Instead of
          the
          > > usual biz game of waiting until you have just enough stability to
          > > ship, the business side of XP teams need to learn how to wait
          until
          > > they have just enough scope to ship. "Big enough" puts the
          emphasis
          > > on scope, where it belongs, instead of on quality, which isn't a
          > > control variable.
          >
          > Very interesting. The whole "good enough" thing ticks me off, as
          > anyone who has been in the way of my bug database discussion has
          > experienced. Perfect is good enough. Anything less and there's
          > guaranteed to be a bug in there that the bastxxxxcustomer wants out.
          > Might as well just make it as good as we can, save all that
          debugging
          > time.

          From Sheila Brady (legendary Apple project manager) channeled by
          Alistair--how is debugging like being made love to by an 800 pound
          gorilla? In neither case are you in control of when it will stop.

          Kent
        • Ellen Ferlazzo
          ... Watch out! That s one of Cooper s analogies... :) (See The Inmates are Running the Asylum). Essentially, Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard,
          Message 4 of 19 , May 2, 2002
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            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: kentlbeck [mailto:kentbeck@...]
            >More like challenge. (Put on your best wildly gesticulating
            >Australian persona.) "It's not about stories. It's about movies."
            >
            >My mind immediately split in two. One half was busily defending the
            >XP party line. The other half was going, "Movies. I never thought of
            >that. Hmmm, that means..." Fortunately my mouth didn't
            >engage in this
            >interval. Scared me, though.

            Watch out! That's one of Cooper's analogies... :) (See The Inmates are
            Running the Asylum). Essentially,

            Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard, design, hire
            actors
            Preproduction in software: interaction design, storyboard, hire
            programmers

            Production in movies: cameras rolling, directors, actors,
            technicians
            Production in software: programmers code, managers "fetch pizza"
            (his words)

            Post production in movies: editing, soundtrack, marketing
            Post production in software: debugging, docs, marketing

            E l l e n F e r l a z z o
            www.sprez.com
          • Phlip
            ... Ouch. I m just an actor reading a script. Ouch. The irony is one of my colleagues (also a published author on software process) was out acting in an indie
            Message 5 of 19 , May 2, 2002
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              Ellen Ferlazzo sez:

              > Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard, design, hire
              > actors
              > Preproduction in software: interaction design, storyboard, hire
              > programmers

              Ouch. I'm just an actor reading a script. Ouch.

              The irony is one of my colleagues (also a published author on software
              process) was out acting in an indie movie today.

              --
              Phlip
              http://www.greencheese.org/SonseOne
              -- This machine last rebooted during the Second Millenium --
            • cmanaster@t-online.de
              ... Is it just a bit part? --Carl --
              Message 6 of 19 , May 2, 2002
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                Phlip writes:

                >Ellen Ferlazzo sez:
                >
                > > Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard, design, hire
                > > actors
                > > Preproduction in software: interaction design, storyboard, hire
                > > programmers
                >
                >Ouch. I'm just an actor reading a script. Ouch.

                Is it just a bit part?

                <ducking and running for cover>
                --Carl
                --
              • Mark Collins-Cope
                Chaps, Here s how I did it (blowing quite a few thousand £ a few years ago on making 1/3 of a film): 1 write script. 2 analyse script for cost implications. 3
                Message 7 of 19 , May 3, 2002
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                  Chaps,

                  Here's how I did it (blowing quite a few thousand £ a few years ago on
                  making 1/3 of a film):
                  1 write script.
                  2 analyse script for cost implications.
                  3 rework script to reduce costs.
                  4 iterate on 2 & 3until pulling hair out.
                  5 refine script to develop detailed shooting schedule (location focused
                  shooting plan).

                  6 (in parallel with 3,4,5)
                  - review applications from literally 100 actors who are willing to work for
                  nothing.
                  - find director of photography (d-o-p) (also not paid)

                  7 work through script with d-o-p - estimate timings for shooting.
                  8 send out call sheets.
                  9 start filming.
                  ... lots of this ... takes much longer than estimated.
                  10. tracking costs, realise I've drastically under-estimated (main
                  incorrect assumption being a shooting ratio of 6-1 which turned out to be
                  16-1, and boy is film processing expensive).
                  11. run out of money (but at least get a fully edited version of what's
                  been shot done).
                  12. rework costs, get a much truer picture of overall costs.
                  13. try and raise money (lots of this).
                  14. fail to raise money.
                  15. give up (keep 1/3 of film to show grandchildren) and put it down to
                  (bad) experience.

                  Is there a moral in this?
                  Ciao,
                  Mark.


                  At 03-05-02, you wrote:
                  >Phlip writes:
                  >
                  > >Ellen Ferlazzo sez:
                  > >
                  > > > Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard, design, hire
                  > > > actors
                  > > > Preproduction in software: interaction design, storyboard, hire
                  > > > programmers
                  > >
                  > >Ouch. I'm just an actor reading a script. Ouch.
                  >
                  >Is it just a bit part?
                  >
                  ><ducking and running for cover>
                  >--Carl
                  >--
                  >
                  >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >
                  >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  >ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Laurent Bossavit
                  ... ...doing much better at that than most software projects... ;) ... Make this temporarily give up . If you were passionate enough to sink that much time
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 3, 2002
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                    > 11. run out of money (but at least get a fully edited version of what's
                    > been shot done).

                    ...doing much better at that than most software projects...

                    ;)

                    > 15. give up (keep 1/3 of film to show grandchildren) and put it down
                    > to (bad) experience.

                    Make this "temporarily give up". If you were passionate enough to
                    sink that much time and effort into it, I would bet that one day you
                    will find a way to complete that work. As Jeffries is wont to say, I
                    might well lose, but that's the way I'd want to bet.

                    Maybe some of your grandkids will be very rich and will fund you
                    out of a sense of family obligations, humoring an old man past his
                    prime. Or who knows, maybe they will even *like* the film. ;)
                  • Kay A. Pentecost
                    Hi, Phlip, ... You, no, never. You d be the Cinematographer. Actually, actors in film are not equivalent to programmers. Contrary to public opinion, and the
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 3, 2002
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                      Hi, Phlip,

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Phlip [mailto:pplumlee@...]
                      > Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:08 PM
                      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [XP] Cutter IT Summit
                      >
                      >
                      > Ellen Ferlazzo sez:
                      >
                      > > Preproduction in movies: write script, storyboard, design, hire
                      > > actors
                      > > Preproduction in software: interaction design, storyboard, hire
                      > > programmers
                      >
                      > Ouch. I'm just an actor reading a script. Ouch.

                      You, no, never. You'd be the Cinematographer.

                      Actually, actors in film are not equivalent to programmers. Contrary to
                      public opinion, and the wishful thinking of actors, actors are really a
                      pretty unimportant part of film production. I would equate them more to
                      Index Cards, Class Diagrams, and other artifacts. Although, occasionally,
                      an actor is a database. With all the attendent problems.

                      I suspect that PHBs would like to think programmers were as disposable as
                      actors...

                      Kay
                    • tranzpupy
                      ... Contrary to ... really a ... more to ... occasionally, ... Which is why ... That s the actor I meant who was the database -- And that pulling power isn t
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 3, 2002
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                        --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Mark Collins-Cope <markcc@r...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >Actually, actors in film are not equivalent to programmers.
                        Contrary to
                        > >public opinion, and the wishful thinking of actors, actors are
                        really a
                        > >pretty unimportant part of film production. I would equate them
                        more to
                        > >Index Cards, Class Diagrams, and other artifacts. Although,
                        occasionally,
                        > >an actor is a database. With all the attendent problems.
                        >
                        > Except for that all important pulling power at the box office.
                        Which is why
                        > they get paid so much (if they have the pulling power).

                        That's the actor I meant who was the "database" -- And that pulling
                        power isn't a constant, is it?

                        But most actors don't get treated all that well on the set. I see the
                        crew (including the director, camera crew, lighting crew, grips,
                        gaffers, script girls, make up, wardrobe, and on into editing as
                        being more parallel to programmers.

                        Kay
                      • tranzpupy
                        Hey, Mark, ... on ... focused ... work for ... out to be ... what s ... down to ... Yeah. Looking back, now, it was a lot of fun, wasn t it? And a lot of
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 3, 2002
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                          Hey, Mark,

                          --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Mark Collins-Cope <markcc@r...> wrote:
                          > Chaps,
                          >
                          > Here's how I did it (blowing quite a few thousand £ a few years ago
                          on
                          > making 1/3 of a film):
                          > 1 write script.
                          > 2 analyse script for cost implications.
                          > 3 rework script to reduce costs.
                          > 4 iterate on 2 & 3until pulling hair out.
                          > 5 refine script to develop detailed shooting schedule (location
                          focused
                          > shooting plan).
                          >
                          > 6 (in parallel with 3,4,5)
                          > - review applications from literally 100 actors who are willing to
                          work for
                          > nothing.
                          > - find director of photography (d-o-p) (also not paid)
                          >
                          > 7 work through script with d-o-p - estimate timings for shooting.
                          > 8 send out call sheets.
                          > 9 start filming.
                          > ... lots of this ... takes much longer than estimated.
                          > 10. tracking costs, realise I've drastically under-estimated (main
                          > incorrect assumption being a shooting ratio of 6-1 which turned
                          out to be
                          > 16-1, and boy is film processing expensive).
                          > 11. run out of money (but at least get a fully edited version of
                          what's
                          > been shot done).
                          > 12. rework costs, get a much truer picture of overall costs.
                          > 13. try and raise money (lots of this).
                          > 14. fail to raise money.
                          > 15. give up (keep 1/3 of film to show grandchildren) and put it
                          down to
                          > (bad) experience.
                          >
                          > Is there a moral in this?

                          Yeah. Looking back, now, it was a lot of fun, wasn't it? And a lot
                          of really hard work...

                          I'm assuming you wrote the script and directed.... and produced.
                          That's a hard job -- known in the industry as a "triple-headed
                          genius."

                          Even if you lost money, you managed to produce a visible product.
                          Something most people never do. Where did you shoot this film?

                          Kay
                        • Mark Collins-Cope
                          ... Except for that all important pulling power at the box office. Which is why they get paid so much (if they have the pulling power). Ciao, Mark.
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 3, 2002
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                            >Actually, actors in film are not equivalent to programmers. Contrary to
                            >public opinion, and the wishful thinking of actors, actors are really a
                            >pretty unimportant part of film production. I would equate them more to
                            >Index Cards, Class Diagrams, and other artifacts. Although, occasionally,
                            >an actor is a database. With all the attendent problems.

                            Except for that all important pulling power at the box office. Which is why
                            they get paid so much (if they have the pulling power).

                            Ciao,
                            Mark.
                          • Mark Collins-Cope
                            Hi Kay, Actually I just produced. The director wrote the script, and did the music. He was the creative one. I spent my time telling him we couldn t afford
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 3, 2002
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                              Hi Kay,

                              Actually I just produced. The director wrote the script, and did the music.
                              He was the creative one. I spent my time telling him we couldn't afford
                              things :-)

                              But yes, it was a lot of fun. It was filmed in the UK around London
                              (including on the underground) and the South East of England.

                              Ciao,
                              Mark.

                              At 03-05-02, you wrote:
                              >Hey, Mark,
                              >
                              >--- In extremeprogramming@y..., Mark Collins-Cope <markcc@r...> wrote:
                              > > Chaps,
                              > >
                              > > Here's how I did it (blowing quite a few thousand £ a few years ago
                              >on
                              > > making 1/3 of a film):
                              > > 1 write script.
                              > > 2 analyse script for cost implications.
                              > > 3 rework script to reduce costs.
                              > > 4 iterate on 2 & 3until pulling hair out.
                              > > 5 refine script to develop detailed shooting schedule (location
                              >focused
                              > > shooting plan).
                              > >
                              > > 6 (in parallel with 3,4,5)
                              > > - review applications from literally 100 actors who are willing to
                              >work for
                              > > nothing.
                              > > - find director of photography (d-o-p) (also not paid)
                              > >
                              > > 7 work through script with d-o-p - estimate timings for shooting.
                              > > 8 send out call sheets.
                              > > 9 start filming.
                              > > ... lots of this ... takes much longer than estimated.
                              > > 10. tracking costs, realise I've drastically under-estimated (main
                              > > incorrect assumption being a shooting ratio of 6-1 which turned
                              >out to be
                              > > 16-1, and boy is film processing expensive).
                              > > 11. run out of money (but at least get a fully edited version of
                              >what's
                              > > been shot done).
                              > > 12. rework costs, get a much truer picture of overall costs.
                              > > 13. try and raise money (lots of this).
                              > > 14. fail to raise money.
                              > > 15. give up (keep 1/3 of film to show grandchildren) and put it
                              >down to
                              > > (bad) experience.
                              > >
                              > > Is there a moral in this?
                              >
                              >Yeah. Looking back, now, it was a lot of fun, wasn't it? And a lot
                              >of really hard work...
                              >
                              >I'm assuming you wrote the script and directed.... and produced.
                              >That's a hard job -- known in the industry as a "triple-headed
                              >genius."
                              >
                              >Even if you lost money, you managed to produce a visible product.
                              >Something most people never do. Where did you shoot this film?
                              >
                              >Kay
                              >
                              >
                              >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                              >
                              >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                              >
                              >ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                              >
                              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Mark Collins-Cope
                              ... Well, it was over 5 years ago now. So unfortunately the continuity will have been completely lost (actors gotten older, etc), and one of the major
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 3, 2002
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                                At 03-05-02, you wrote:
                                > > 11. run out of money (but at least get a fully edited version of what's
                                > > been shot done).
                                >
                                >...doing much better at that than most software projects...
                                >
                                >;)
                                >
                                > > 15. give up (keep 1/3 of film to show grandchildren) and put it down
                                > > to (bad) experience.
                                >Make this "temporarily give up". If you were passionate enough to
                                >sink that much time and effort into it, I would bet that one day you
                                >will find a way to complete that work. As Jeffries is wont to say, I
                                >might well lose, but that's the way I'd want to bet.

                                Well, it was over 5 years ago now. So unfortunately the continuity will
                                have been completely lost (actors gotten older, etc), and one of the major
                                locations was turned into a block of flats (it was a rather old gothic
                                mansion that was decaying rapidly)! I will give it another go at some point
                                though (different project).

                                More seriously, some genuine lessons that maybe do cross relate to software
                                development:
                                1) we were inexperienced, and should have worked more iteratively. If we'd
                                done some shooting and editing it together (integration) early on, we'd
                                have realised we were going to be way over budget.Perhaps we'd have decided
                                to make a complete 30 minute film instead then (more likely we'd have put
                                our heads into the sand :-)! We'd have also learned more in the early days
                                and applied it better.
                                2) scale makes a big difference. The d-o-p had worked previously on
                                advertisments, and we assumed his take on the timing estimates was going to
                                be accurate. But he was used to 2 day intensive filming sessions, which
                                didn't work when extended to a 30 day shoot - people couldn't keep it up.
                                3) don't fund your own projects (a good rule in software I think :-)!

                                Ciao,
                                Mark.
                              • kevinbsmith
                                ... Fergus O Connell also uses this metaphor in his How to Run Successful Projects books (subtitled The Silver Bullet ). I ve read editions one and two, but
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 4, 2002
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                                  --- In extremeprogramming@y..., "kentlbeck" <kentbeck@c...> wrote:
                                  > More like challenge. (Put on your best wildly gesticulating
                                  > Australian persona.) "It's not about stories. It's about
                                  > movies."
                                  >
                                  > My mind immediately split in two. One half was busily
                                  > defending the XP party line. The other half was going,
                                  > "Movies. I never thought of that. Hmmm, that means..."

                                  Fergus O'Connell also uses this metaphor in his "How to Run
                                  Successful Projects" books (subtitled "The Silver Bullet").
                                  I've read editions one and two, but not three.
                                  Unfortunately, they're not here in front of me.

                                  His concept is that if a producer and director can lay
                                  out an entire movie production in such detail months in
                                  advance, we should be able to do the same thing for
                                  software development.

                                  I used to think this was a great idea, before I found XP.
                                  Now, I realize that even if it is possible to fully
                                  understand and plan a large project to that level of
                                  detail, it probably isn't a good idea. The Customer is
                                  unlikely to have the same desires by the end of the
                                  project as they had at the beginning. Embrace change, and
                                  all of that.

                                  Also, with a movie, as with building construction, you
                                  HAVE to make solid plans because your medium is not
                                  malleable like software. If you have hired a thousand
                                  extras for a scene, and gotten New York City to close
                                  down several streets, by golly you had better shoot the
                                  scene on that day! Or, imagine if half way through filming
                                  Spider-man, they decided that his suit should be puffy
                                  and green, instead of sleek and red?

                                  And, of course, budget overruns are still common in movie
                                  production.

                                  So, I suggest we toss the movie metaphor "in the can".

                                  O'Connell also uses Antarctic expeditions as a metaphor,
                                  mosly comparing Amundsen (successful) and Scott
                                  (unsuccessful). This seems somewhat better, because it
                                  relies on having enough resources on hand, and reacting
                                  to unexpected events. But if you really feel like your
                                  development team is (metaphorically) thousands of miles
                                  from the rest of the world, with no possibility of
                                  outside help or guidance, I pity you.

                                  Kevin
                                • James Goebel
                                  ... Has anyone been watching Project Green Light on HBO? Being too cheap to pay for premium channels the only episodes I have seen are while I am on the road
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 6, 2002
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                                    on 5/4/02 12:08 PM, kevinbsmith at kevinxp@... wrote:

                                    > --- In extremeprogramming@y..., "kentlbeck" <kentbeck@c...> wrote:
                                    >> More like challenge. (Put on your best wildly gesticulating
                                    >> Australian persona.) "It's not about stories. It's about
                                    >> movies."
                                    >>
                                    >> My mind immediately split in two. One half was busily
                                    >> defending the XP party line. The other half was going,
                                    >> "Movies. I never thought of that. Hmmm, that means..."
                                    >
                                    > Fergus O'Connell also uses this metaphor in his "How to Run
                                    > Successful Projects" books (subtitled "The Silver Bullet").
                                    > ...
                                    >
                                    > His concept is that if a producer and director can lay
                                    > out an entire movie production in such detail months in
                                    > advance, we should be able to do the same thing for
                                    > software development.
                                    >
                                    > I used to think this was a great idea, before I found XP.
                                    > Now, I realize that even if it is possible to fully
                                    > understand and plan a large project to that level of
                                    > detail, it probably isn't a good idea. ...
                                    >
                                    > Also, with a movie, as with building construction, you
                                    > HAVE to make solid plans because your medium is not
                                    > malleable like software.

                                    Has anyone been watching Project Green Light on HBO? Being too cheap to pay
                                    for premium channels the only episodes I have seen are while I am on the
                                    road visiting clients.

                                    The parallels between the project management issues of the Project Green
                                    Light movie and the project management issues in software projects seem very
                                    strong to me. Different specialists try to optimize different parts of the
                                    process, while decisions are made without looking forward enough to see what
                                    feature/scene was inadvertently moved outside the allocated budget.

                                    Other documentaries that I have seen on the topic of movie-making often show
                                    how the feedback provided by reviewing the prior day's film greatly affect
                                    what the director and producer do next.

                                    James Goebel
                                    www.menloinnovations.com
                                  • Larry Constantine
                                    Ron, ... I still wish you were presenting at forUSE 2002. But at least you will not make the mistake of not attending, right? :-) --Larry Constantine forUSE
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 8, 2002
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                                      Ron,

                                      > Sounds like I made a mistake in not attending. Not my first. I hope
                                      > not my last. Thanks for the report!

                                      I still wish you were presenting at forUSE 2002. But at least you will not
                                      make the mistake of not attending, right? :-)

                                      --Larry Constantine
                                      forUSE 2002 | 25-28 August 2002
                                      Sponsored by Constantine & Lockwood, Ltd.
                                      www.foruse.com/2002
                                    • Ron Jeffries
                                      ... Hmm, it s not on my list ... I suppose it should be. It s not like I m earning any money, I mize well go have fun. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com You
                                      Message 18 of 19 , May 8, 2002
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                                        Around Wednesday, May 8, 2002, 1:00:28 PM, Larry Constantine wrote:

                                        >> Sounds like I made a mistake in not attending. Not my first. I hope
                                        >> not my last. Thanks for the report!

                                        > I still wish you were presenting at forUSE 2002. But at least you will not
                                        > make the mistake of not attending, right? :-)

                                        Hmm, it's not on my list ... I suppose it should be. It's not like I'm
                                        earning any money, I mize well go have fun.

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                        You can observe a lot by watching. --Yogi Berra
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