Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XP] Could/should the Coach be a Programmer?

Expand Messages
  • Steve Molitor
    ... I have absolutely no XP experience, but....ignorance never stopped me from giving an opinion before! I think the coach should be a programmer. Otherwise,
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 28, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      john@... writes:

      > We are looking at adopting XP. Regarding the roles of Coach and
      > Programmer is it a good idea for the Coach to be one of the
      > Programmers on the project? Why or why not?

      I have absolutely no XP experience, but....ignorance never stopped me
      from giving an opinion before!

      I think the coach should be a programmer. Otherwise, what would he
      be coaching them on? He wouldn't be able to coach the programmers on
      programming, since they (as programmers) would be more expert on that
      than he would (as a non-programmer). The coach could be a former
      programmer, but this wouldn't work long term, since he would gradually
      loose touch with reality, as tools and languages changed.


      --
      Steve Molitor
      smolitor@...
      "Emacs is the Computer"
    • Steve Freeman
      It s very hard to look after the process and have project deliverables at the same time. The coach often needs to be able to stand back and take a look at
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 28, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        It's very hard to look after the process and have project deliverables at the same time. The coach often needs to be able to stand back and take a look at what's going on with the team, so I would say no.

        On my last project, we played it that the Coach programmed in pairs (as does everyone), but owned no tasks of his own. Apart from allowing him to take time out as required for other things, it also made it easy for him to move around different parts of the system and work a bit with everyone. Of course, our best intentions slipped from time to time...

        Steve


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <john@...>
        To: <extremeprogramming@egroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 10:17 PM
        Subject: [XP] Could/should the Coach be a Programmer?


        > We are looking at adopting XP. Regarding the roles of Coach and
        > Programmer is it a good idea for the Coach to be one of the
        > Programmers on the project? Why or why not?
        >
        > Should you rotate who the Coach is from iteration to iteration?
        >
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
        >
      • Robert C. Martin
        ... We are coaching XP at a number of clients. In all cases the coach plays an invaluable role. He teaches the XP practices, modifies them as appropriate for
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 29, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: John Wetherbie [mailto:john@...]
          > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 6:43 PM
          > To: extremeprogramming@egroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [XP] Could/should the Coach be a Programmer?
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > > B, coaching XP, again IMO, requires someone who knows XP well.
          > Someone who
          > > read Kent's book isn't qualified. Even someone who read _mine_
          > isn't.
          > > (That's a joke.) A year on a real XP project would be a start.
          > >
          >
          > How would you handle the situation where there aren't any people with
          > a lot or any XP experience available? Do you have to bring in a
          > consultant to be the Coach? (Bob, if you're reading this, what are
          > your rates? ;-)) Would you say having a Coach with XP experience
          > would
          > be the difference between success and failure? Where did the first XP
          > projects find Coaches when no one had done XP yet?

          We are coaching XP at a number of clients. In all cases the coach plays
          an invaluable role. He teaches the XP practices, modifies them as
          appropriate for the team, ensures that they are followed, and provides
          general leadership to the team.

          Our coaches are highly experienced people. They are not just there to
          coach XP. Rather they are there to coach the team in software, OO
          design, project management, XP, etc, etc. They take a considerable
          amount of responsibility for the project and help to drive it to
          completion. They help select the user stories, they help build the
          release plans and iteration plans. They pair program with the team.
          They guide the team in useful refactoring. They prevent the team from
          overengineering (and underengineering). They keep the team focussed.

          >
          > I guess my concern is that Coach would just become another name for
          > non-coding architect.

          This is not football. Coaches should code, even if only a little. But
          IMHO the more the better.


          Robert C. Martin | President | Training Courses:
          Object Mentor Inc. | rmartin@... | OOD, Patterns, C++,
          Java,
          PO Box 85 | Tel: (800) 338-6716 | Extreme Programming.
          Grayslake IL 60030 | Fax: (847) 548-6853 |
          http://www.objectmentor.com

          "One of the great commandments of science is:
          'Mistrust arguments from authority.'" -- Carl Sagan
        • Phlip
          From: Robert C. Martin ... So move the clock forward 2.5 years. Everyone s doing XP. Better yet, move the clock forward 25 years. Now a few colleges are
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 29, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            From: Robert C. Martin

            > We are coaching XP at a number of clients. In all cases the coach plays
            > an invaluable role. He teaches the XP practices, modifies them as
            > appropriate for the team, ensures that they are followed, and provides
            > general leadership to the team.

            So move the clock forward 2.5 years. Everyone's doing XP.

            Better yet, move the clock forward 25 years. Now a few colleges are teaching
            XP.

            Everyone now knows XP. Still need a coach? What role they'l have beyond
            "modifies [practices] as appropriate for the team, ensures they are
            followed, and provides general leadership"?

            Phlip
            ======= http://users.deltanet.com/~tegan/home.html =======
          • John Wetherbie
            ... But ... Bob, How little is little, ie, what percentage of the time is the minimum you would code if you were the Coach? Maximum percentage of the time? Do
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 29, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In extremeprogramming@egroups.com, "Robert C. Martin"
              <rmartin@o...> wrote:

              > This is not football. Coaches should code, even if only a little.
              But
              > IMHO the more the better.

              Bob,

              How little is little, ie, what percentage of the time is the minimum
              you would code if you were the Coach? Maximum percentage of the time?

              Do you agree with the concept that the Coach shouldn't be responsible
              for any Tasks but should rather focus on helping out others in Pair
              Programming?
            • Roger Whitney
              ... Well, it is not going to take that long. Ralph Johnson and I are planning to offer a course on extreme programming (XP) May 15 - June 9 at UIUC in
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 30, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                >Better yet, move the clock forward 25 years. Now a few colleges are teaching
                >XP.

                Well, it is not going to take that long. Ralph Johnson and I are planning
                to offer a course on extreme programming (XP) May 15 - June 9 at UIUC in
                Champaign-Urbana Illinois. Students will learn XP by working as an XP team
                to build a multiuser multimedia system in Smalltalk using Squeak. There is
                a course description at http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/cs497rej/XP+workshop. See
                http://www.xProgramming.com/ for more information about extreme programming
                and http://www.squeak.org/ for more information about Squeak.

                While the course is designed for UIUC students, others are welcome to
                attend the course. Those with experience in Squeak or XP would not have to
                attend the entire time to benefit from the course and contribute to the
                project. If you are interested in attending all or part of the course
                contact me for more details.

                If you do not attend the course you can help us out by acting like a
                customer. Take a look at the project description at
                http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/cs497rej/ObjectWeb and suggest features/extensions
                to the project. So here is your chance to suggest to a team of UIUC
                students to implement some Squeak feature you always wanted. Of course, as
                is the XP way, the on-site customer will rank all features (stories) in
                order of importance. :)



                Roger Whitney Mathematical & Computer Sciences Department
                whitney@... San Diego State University
                http://www.eli.sdsu.edu/ San Diego, CA 92182-7720
                (217) 328-0824
                (619) 594-3535
                (619) 594-6746 (fax)
              • Jen Wu
                I think there s some confusion here ... Some people are talking about a coach being a non-programmer (as in, does not know how to code, or hasn t done it in a
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 30, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think there's some confusion here ... Some people are talking about
                  a coach being a non-programmer (as in, does not know how to code, or
                  hasn't done it in a while) and some people are talking about a coach
                  who doesn't program on the particular project that's being coached.
                  My suspicion is that most people saying that the coach should be a
                  programmer do not mean that the coach should program on the project
                  they are coaching.

                  I think it would be good to separate the roles of teacher and coach.
                  I'm sure they can be the same person, but they don't have to be. If
                  we decide to adopt XP with our new project, I suspect that someone
                  on-site will be acting as a full-time coach, while someone from the
                  outside will be providing us with the benefit of their experience and
                  knowledge of XP and other practices.

                  I would expect a coach to be someone who can focus the team towards
                  their goals, to make sure morale is high, and to advocate for the team
                  when needed. This does not have to be a programmer -- I think some of
                  the best coaches (and teachers) are the ones who can guide a team
                  without having to tell them how to do something, but asking questions
                  that will lead them to discover the right answers (even if the coach
                  doesn't know what they are).

                  Jen


                  John Wetherbie wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In extremeprogramming@egroups.com, "Robert C. Martin"
                  > <rmartin@o...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > This is not football. Coaches should code, even if only a little.
                  > But
                  > > IMHO the more the better.
                  >
                  > Bob,
                  >
                  > How little is little, ie, what percentage of the time is the minimum
                  > you would code if you were the Coach? Maximum percentage of the time?
                  >
                  > Do you agree with the concept that the Coach shouldn't be responsible
                  > for any Tasks but should rather focus on helping out others in Pair
                  > Programming?
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                • zzz
                  Speaking as an XP wannabe... As I see it the coach is focused on the process, not the product. She makes sure that people are not skipping on testing, spots
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 1, 2000
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Speaking as an XP wannabe...

                    As I see it the coach is focused on the process, not the product. She makes sure that
                    people are not skipping on testing, spots the guy who is working on his own too much,
                    helps the new team member with early estimating and test writing skills and notices that
                    the desk layout could be better. Her deliverable is a smoothly running process. As
                    such, a coach might not programme, and certainly should never own a task.

                    Being able to programme and pair with people would be an advantage but first class people
                    skills and a solid understanding of XP at several levels would be more important.

                    Rgds.

                    Tom
                  • John Wetherbie
                    ... about ... Actually, my reason for starting this thread is to address whether the Coach could/should be a Programmer on the project he is coaching. All the
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 1, 2000
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In extremeprogramming@egroups.com, Jen Wu <jen@d...> wrote:
                      > I think there's some confusion here ... Some people are talking
                      about
                      > a coach being a non-programmer (as in, does not know how to code, or
                      > hasn't done it in a while) and some people are talking about a coach
                      > who doesn't program on the particular project that's being coached.
                      > My suspicion is that most people saying that the coach should be a
                      > programmer do not mean that the coach should program on the project
                      > they are coaching.

                      Actually, my reason for starting this thread is to address whether
                      the
                      Coach could/should be a Programmer on the project he is coaching. All
                      the responses appeared to be along this line.
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.