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Re: [XP] Re: xp for non object programming

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  • Peter Hansen
    ... Sounds like a near perfect type of development for XP, on the face of it. Provided you have a team that buys in to the idea. And willingness on the part
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 2, 2002
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      gmitchu wrote:
      >
      > So XP should be suitable for a large, multi TB data warehouse using
      > Oracle PL/SQL and Pro C to extract data from many operational systems
      > nightly and storing the data in Oracle DB and SAS Datamarts.
      > The DW requires frequent, rapid development of enhancements to
      > introduce new data into the DW. User presentation layer is provided
      > only by standard tools such as SAS and PL/SQL. So no user dialogues
      > are written. And no OO is used.

      Sounds like a near perfect type of development for XP, on the face
      of it. Provided you have a team that buys in to the idea. And
      willingness on the part of some Customer to play a key role in
      the project (possibly a full-time job). And the ability to implement
      some kind of unit tests for the system. And a CIO who is not a PHB.

      > Our CIO is interested in us using XP, and I've been reading the
      > literature. We'll have some formal training in a couple of weeks.

      Get a coach! If you plan to do it for real. And absolutely,
      without question, get enough information about it to the team
      and have enough advance discussion about it that you GET BUY-IN.

      Otherwise you _will_ fail. (Well, anything's possible, but I
      think you should take that "extreme" claim under strong advisement.)

      > Are there any known cases using XP for non-OO projects? Any
      > documented?

      My company is using XP for non-OO projects, and for OO projects.
      I'd offer to talk to your CIO offline but since our work is
      about as far as it is possible to be from traditional IT projects
      such as you describe above, I doubt we'd be much help.

      -Peter
    • gmitchu
      ... using ... systems ... provided ... dialogues ... implement ... Thanks for your advice and non-OO XP assurance. My CIO has ordered all new development
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 3, 2002
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        --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Peter Hansen <peter@e...> wrote:
        > gmitchu wrote:
        > >
        > > So XP should be suitable for a large, multi TB data warehouse
        using
        > > Oracle PL/SQL and Pro C to extract data from many operational
        systems
        > > nightly and storing the data in Oracle DB and SAS Datamarts.
        > > The DW requires frequent, rapid development of enhancements to
        > > introduce new data into the DW. User presentation layer is
        provided
        > > only by standard tools such as SAS and PL/SQL. So no user
        dialogues
        > > are written. And no OO is used.
        >
        > Sounds like a near perfect type of development for XP, on the face
        > of it. Provided you have a team that buys in to the idea. And
        > willingness on the part of some Customer to play a key role in
        > the project (possibly a full-time job). And the ability to
        implement
        > some kind of unit tests for the system. And a CIO who is not a PHB.
        >
        > > Our CIO is interested in us using XP, and I've been reading the
        > > literature. We'll have some formal training in a couple of weeks.
        >
        > Get a coach! If you plan to do it for real. And absolutely,
        > without question, get enough information about it to the team
        > and have enough advance discussion about it that you GET BUY-IN.
        >
        > Otherwise you _will_ fail. (Well, anything's possible, but I
        > think you should take that "extreme" claim under strong advisement.)
        >
        > > Are there any known cases using XP for non-OO projects? Any
        > > documented?
        >
        > My company is using XP for non-OO projects, and for OO projects.
        > I'd offer to talk to your CIO offline but since our work is
        > about as far as it is possible to be from traditional IT projects
        > such as you describe above, I doubt we'd be much help.
        >
        > -Peter
        Thanks for your advice and non-OO XP assurance. My CIO has ordered
        all new
        development projects to use XP, and he wants established projects
        with
        significant enhancements to use XP as well (our DW falls into the
        later
        category).
        We have lots of DW clients with requirements for specific data to be
        loaded into the DW from operational systems. I think we'll have no
        problem getting clients' commitments to be available.
        Your emphasis on the "coach" is interesting. I presume that you mean
        an "experienced coach" is critical to success.
        Your comment on "unit test" prompts an additional query. We normally
        protoype data acquisition from the operational system very soom after
        understanding the client requirement. So that prototype code can be
        unit
        tested. However after the data is acquired, data quality analysis is
        performed by the client and IT Development to determine if the data
        is
        actually suitable for intended use. If not, then other sources for
        the data are identified and then prototyped, etc. I see no way to
        automate unit testing for data quality analysis which is highly
        dependent on client subject matter expertise, however unit testing
        can
        ensure acquisition and delivery of the data.
        Our development team is curious about XP, but a long way from "buying
        in."
        But
        they know that it will be the IT "way" going forward, so they'll dig
        in to understand and adapt.
        don
      • banshee858
        An experienced coach is not completely necessary, but helpful for defending the methodology from the well-intentioned, but uninformed. However, please
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 3, 2002
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          An experienced coach is not completely necessary, but helpful for
          defending the methodology from the well-intentioned, but uninformed.
          However, please designate someone as the coach since any coach is
          better than no coach at all.

          Be warned, an expereienced coach knows what to expect and how to
          handle the issues that pop up from time-to-time. Someone
          inexperienced may not know the warning signs, how the best way to
          react to changes or how small changes have wider implications. If
          you decide to go it without a coach or an experienced coach, buy the
          purple book. I wish I had it when I started.
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... Danger, Will Robinson! Have all your developers been trained in XP? Have they all even had a chance to study the materials? Has the company done some XP
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 3, 2002
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            Around Wednesday, April 3, 2002, 1:14:54 PM, gmitchu wrote:

            > My CIO has ordered all new development projects to use XP, and he
            > wants established projects with significant enhancements to use XP
            > as well (our DW falls into the later category).

            Danger, Will Robinson! Have all your developers been trained in XP?
            Have they all even had a chance to study the materials? Has the
            company done some XP projects? Are the customers on board, ready to
            spend full time with the developers? Are the common workspaces all set
            up?

            In short: is the company ready to "use XP"?

            Serious question.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            You can observe a lot by watching. --Yogi Berra
          • gmitchu
            ... set ... Thanks for the XP gotchas. Yes, the company has done a few XP projects -- so far only new projects. Yes, customers of those XP projects are
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 3, 2002
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              --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
              > Around Wednesday, April 3, 2002, 1:14:54 PM, gmitchu wrote:
              >
              > > My CIO has ordered all new development projects to use XP, and he
              > > wants established projects with significant enhancements to use XP
              > > as well (our DW falls into the later category).
              >
              > Danger, Will Robinson! Have all your developers been trained in XP?
              > Have they all even had a chance to study the materials? Has the
              > company done some XP projects? Are the customers on board, ready to
              > spend full time with the developers? Are the common workspaces all
              set
              > up?
              >
              > In short: is the company ready to "use XP"?
              >
              > Serious question.
              >
              > Ron Jeffries
              > www.XProgramming.com
              Thanks for the XP "gotchas."
              Yes, the company has done a few XP projects -- so far only "new"
              projects.
              Yes, customers of those XP projects are fully on board.
              Yes, the developers were trained on those XP projects.
              Yes, external & experienced coaches were brought in for those
              projects and not only coached the project team but mentored successor
              coaches.
              I'm not sure about the workspaces.
              These XP projects were all transaction-based applications using OO.
              Now, I think from my reading and my CIO's endorsement, that I'd like
              to adopt XP practices on my non-OO Data Warehouse.
              Your checklist of pre-requisites and success factors is helpful.
              don

              > You can observe a lot by watching. --Yogi Berra
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... Sounds like your company is trying to do it right. There should be an award for that! Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com I could be wrong, but I m not.
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 3, 2002
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                Around Wednesday, April 3, 2002, 2:32:34 PM, gmitchu wrote:

                > Thanks for the XP "gotchas."
                > Yes, the company has done a few XP projects -- so far only "new"
                > projects.
                > Yes, customers of those XP projects are fully on board.
                > Yes, the developers were trained on those XP projects.
                > Yes, external & experienced coaches were brought in for those
                > projects and not only coached the project team but mentored successor
                > coaches.
                > I'm not sure about the workspaces.
                > These XP projects were all transaction-based applications using OO.
                > Now, I think from my reading and my CIO's endorsement, that I'd like
                > to adopt XP practices on my non-OO Data Warehouse.
                > Your checklist of pre-requisites and success factors is helpful.

                Sounds like your company is trying to do it right. There should be an
                award for that!

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                I could be wrong, but I'm not. --Eagles, Victim of Love
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