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RE: [XP] cons of XP

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  • Dinwiddie, George
    ... Dossy, your paragraph sounds a lot like (b) to me. You re saying that the evidence that they want to ship quality software on time is that they follow the
    Message 1 of 34 , Mar 1, 2002
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      Dossy replied to Ron:
      >
      > On 2002.02.27, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dossy said that you have to want to be successful to do XP. It seemd
      > > he was saying that (a) there are people who don't want to be
      > > successful and (b) people who don't want to do XP don't want to be
      > > successful.
      > >
      > > I disagree with both of those.
      >
      > A person who is developing software may tell you they want to
      > ship quality software on time but they refuse to take the
      > steps (we as XP practitioners) believe are necessary to do
      > just that. Do they really want to deliver quality software
      > on time? Are they just saying it and believing it but
      > not acting in such a way to achieve their desire?
      >
      > I don't think I ever said anything that translates to (b), but
      > it's entirely possible. Either way, I certainly didn't mean
      > (b).

      Dossy, your paragraph sounds a lot like (b) to me. You're saying
      that the evidence that they want to ship quality software on time
      is that they follow the practices you (we) recommend. This implies
      that if they don't want to follow the practices, they must not be
      serious about wanting to ship quality software on time.

      It's quite possible, however, that they do want to ship quality
      software on time and they may believe that the XP practices will
      cause them not to do so. Or they may believe that if they just
      get the requirements right before they start, they will be able
      to do so. Or they may believe that if they have a good enough
      Architect do the design before the coders start, they will be
      able to do so.

      In any of these scenarios, saying that they must not *really*
      want to ship quality software on time is not congruent with
      their beliefs and will do nothing to change their mind. It
      is an argument that may undermine your intent with uninvolved
      observers, too.

      - George
    • Dossy
      ... If they re successful doing it the way they re used to, then there is no point in proselytizing. It s hard to convince someone who believes (or at least
      Message 34 of 34 , Mar 2, 2002
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        On 2002.03.01, Dinwiddie, George <George.Dinwiddie@...> wrote:
        > It's quite possible, however, that they do want to ship quality
        > software on time and they may believe that the XP practices will
        > cause them not to do so. Or they may believe that if they just
        > get the requirements right before they start, they will be able
        > to do so. Or they may believe that if they have a good enough
        > Architect do the design before the coders start, they will be
        > able to do so.

        If they're successful doing it the way they're used to, then
        there is no point in proselytizing. It's hard to convince
        someone who believes (or at least perceives) that they've
        got a successful methodology to convert to XP. I don't
        blame them.

        However, if you've "gone down with the ship" on enough failed
        projects ... isn't that a not-very-subtle hint that the techniques
        you're employing aren't working? XP may not be the solution,
        or the only solution, but at least it's something different than
        what you're already doing ... so why not give it a shot? Not
        changing your actions that lead to failure is, in my opinion,
        an explicit "physical" expression of not wanting to succeed.

        > In any of these scenarios, saying that they must not *really*
        > want to ship quality software on time is not congruent with
        > their beliefs and will do nothing to change their mind. It
        > is an argument that may undermine your intent with uninvolved
        > observers, too.

        Possibly. Perhaps the people who really do want to shp quality
        software on time have already tried XP (and perhaps taken away
        what good points they can) and those who remain who aren't
        willing to try it are indeed refusing to try something new
        because those few really don't care about shipping quality
        software. They seem to care about other things more, like
        political agendas or just covering their own asses.

        Of course, if they just started demonstrating their value to
        the organization, they wouldn't need to play those stupid
        games, but maybe that says something ...

        -- Dossy

        --
        Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
        Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
        "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
        folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
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