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Re: On wanting success (was Re: [XP] cons of XP -- on "success")

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  • drawstho@aol.com
    Let me chime in on this issue. I don t think it has anything to do with wanting to succeed or not. I think that it has to do with discipline. People want to
    Message 1 of 98 , Feb 28, 2002
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      Let me chime in on this issue. I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to succeed or not. I think that it has to do with discipline. People want to succeed, and may even know how to succeed, but do they have the discipline to do it? XP requires that each member of the team develop the discipline to stick with the practices.

      IMHO, one of the reasons for high-ceremony processes is that they try to replace individual discipline with process discipline, which is enforced by a QA group, normally. This means that not everyone has to have the discipline to do it right, just the process police...

      So, agile processes are quicker, cheaper, and more responsive, but require more disciplined people. High ceremony processes can get the job done with less disciplined people, with a higher cost in both money and time.

      As I said before, think Special Forces A-team versus regular infantry... this analogy works for me - but I'm a soldier...

      Dan ;-)

      Dossy <dossy@...> writes:

      > On 2002.02.28, Laurent Bossavit <laurent@...> wrote:
      > > > I believe that the big issue against XP is /not/ that some people
      > > > don't want the kind of success that we offer. I believe that it is
      > > > people who /do/ want the kind of success that we offer, and through
      > > > honest ignorance or honest disagreement, do not believe that our
      > > > process is the best way to get that success.
      > >
      > > Ah, perfect summation.
      >
      > I agree. Ron hit it right on the head.
      >
      > > I want to agree with you, Ron. But I've known people (my boss for
      > > instance) to say, and do, things for which the most charitable, the
      > > most plausible interpretation *I* could find was that they did not want
      > > the kind of success we offer.
      >
      > That's exactly what I'm talking about. I can believe that the
      > person (like your boss) genuinely wants to succeed. They even
      > explicitly express it verbally. However, their actions and
      > other externally measurable output indicate otherwise. A person
      > in conflict, so on and so on.
      >
      > > But maybe "want" is the word at issue. I've been a smoker for many
      > > years. I always knew it was a serious health problem, so under one
      > > meaning of the term I've always "wanted" to quit. Nevertheless,
      > > though I didn't "want" to I was smoking a pack a day or so.
      > >
      > > I could *claim* I value my health and a long life, but my actions belie
      > > that claim. My de facto objective, as my friends and family (or the
      > > non-smokers among them) observe with some puzzlement, appears
      > > to be a reduction of my life span.
      > >
      > > Honest ignorance or honest disagreement can *not* enter into this,
      > > since I know and agree that smoking is bad for my health.
      > >
      > [...]
      > >
      > > I honestly don't know how to explain that someone will split a team
      > > in 2, agreeing that it reduces the team's effectiveness, and justify
      > > the decision by saying "it's a management decision"... other than by
      > > assuming that their de facto objective isn't success as XP defines it.
      >
      > Right on.
      >
      > -- Dossy
      >
      > --
      > Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
      > Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
      > "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
      > folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
      >
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    • Dossy
      ... Yes. I feel the way you rephrased what I said is a good way of distilling what I was trying to say from what I actually said. I d even go so far as to say
      Message 98 of 98 , Mar 2 10:22 AM
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        Dossy said:
        > > All the XP practices are the simplest (leanest?) way of achieving
        > > each necessary piece of the software development process, and
        > > in such a manner, support each other making each practice even
        > > that more useful than the practice by itself. That's why I
        > > say that substituting a different solution instead of doing the
        > > XP practice will be less effective.

        Dale said:
        > Here's my interpretation: XP has only essential practices. Other
        > methodologies include helpful-but-nonessential practices that you
        > might be able to remove safely. But if you remove a practice from XP,
        > you're removing something that is (very likely to be) essential to
        > your success.
        >
        > Am I getting the cause-and-effect right?

        Yes. I feel the way you rephrased what I said is a good way
        of distilling what I was trying to say from what I actually said.

        I'd even go so far as to say that XP's "essential practices" aren't
        even always essential for every single possible project. However,
        you can never be certain which practices aren't possible at the
        start of the project, so you're best bet is to do them all at the
        start. Then, decide how to adapt as experience guides you.

        -- Dossy

        --
        Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
        Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
        "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
        folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
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