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Re: [XP] XP and McConnel

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... Which XP books have you read so far? Which web sites? ... Estimation in XP is done at a finer grain than function points. There is no incompatibility
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 1, 2002
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      Around Friday, February 01, 2002, 6:19:21 AM, haalis wrote:

      > I have a question about xp.

      Which XP books have you read so far? Which web sites?

      > 1.What activities does xp have who covers McConnels estimation with
      > function points, riskmanagment, classic mistakes and best practises.

      Estimation in XP is done at a finer grain than function points. There
      is no incompatibility between XP and most of McConnell's advice,
      although he seems to recommend far heavier effort than seems to us to
      be needed for most projects.

      > These different tools are very powerful, how is it possible that xp
      > can be moore successful than mcconnels heavy weight methodologies?

      XP projects are done by close-knit teams working intimately together
      with someone who really understands the requirements. This is what
      gives the opportunity for higher performance with less ritual.

      > 2.XP tries to flatten the change curve, because its expensive to make
      > changes further out in the project. If you try to minimize change
      > during the project, isnt it possible to design an plan it, before you
      > start. How is the project then evolutionary?

      XP /does not/ try to minimize change: it expects and embraces change.
      It works in such a way as to make the cost of change as low as
      possible, and it measures progress in such a way as to make the goal
      provider aware of the cost of the changes requested.

      > 3.How is it possible to have a perpective of the whole project,
      > without the usual design diagrams.

      If you need the diagrams, draw them in some inexpensive way. If you
      don't need them, don't draw them.

      > 4.How does an xp project give an estimate?

      Easily and frequently. Read about Release Planning, Iteration
      Planning, Planning Game, Estimation, ...

      > 5.Does an systemdevelopers job description in an xp project change,
      > compared with its jobdescription in another project?Because an
      > systemdesigner makes diagrams ,does dokumentation and so. Does these
      > tasks disappear in an xp project?

      Many of them do. XP does not recommend designers who do not program,
      nor programmers who do not design.

      > 6. What is the negative sides of xp?

      It only works if you do it.

      > 7.Would it be possible to unite mcconnels heavy weight methodologies
      > with xp lightweight methodology into one methodology?By matchin its
      > negative sides and positive?Wouldent this be a stronger development
      > tool?

      It would be possible. It would be like building your house the same
      way you would build a skyscraper: it would cost a fortune, take
      forever, and you would still have no place to park.

      > 8.What is the negative sides of mcconnels methodologies+

      Essentially everything he recommends is suitable for /some/ project.
      He seems to think that more process is good. We think that you should
      use less process rather than more.

      McConnell's approach and XP's are different in philosophy. His
      techniques are mostly good but seem to address projects that do not
      have close contact with customers, do not even have close contact
      between all the programmers, and go on for a long time.

      If you like the products McConnell's methods have produced, and you
      like writing lots of things down, and you like shipping software
      infrequently, you might like his methods. If you like working closely
      with other people and shipping software every two weeks, you might
      like XP.

      If you have fifty people on your project, you might like his methods.
      If you have five or ten or fifteen, all in one location, his methods
      are probably too much.

      But there are /many/ good ideas in his books. Not all of them apply
      to everyone. XP doesn't apply to everyone either.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      FEAR = Fantasy Experienced As Reality
    • kevinbsmith
      ... (snip) We seem to be getting quite a few of these What is XP? and How does XP compare to McConnell? questions these days. I suspect at least some of
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 1, 2002
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        --- In extremeprogramming@y..., "haalis" wrote:
        > I have a question about xp.
        > 1.What activities does xp have who covers McConnels estimation
        > with function points, riskmanagment, classic mistakes and best
        > practises.
        (snip)

        We seem to be getting quite a few of these "What is XP?" and "How
        does XP compare to McConnell?" questions these days. I suspect at
        least some of them relate to academic assignments.

        Perhaps we should create a Wiki page that addresses these specific
        issues, so the answer to any such posting could be: Go look at xyz.

        Just a thought.

        Kevin
      • banshee858
        Is McConnell the same Steve McConnell who wrote Rapid Development? If so, he and Kent Beck seem to be required reading universities today.
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 1, 2002
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          Is McConnell the same Steve McConnell who wrote Rapid Development?
          If so, he and Kent Beck seem to be required reading universities
          today.
        • Wyatt Sutherland
          It s in the name. For those who appreciate a simple light weight approach, the XP name probably means very little (though personally I like XP). For that
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 1, 2002
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            It's in the name.

            For those who appreciate a simple "light weight" approach, the XP name
            probably means very little (though personally I like XP). For that matter
            XP could be called CP "Contemporary Process." ;-)

            When I introduce clients to XP I go to extremes avoiding the word extreme
            and use agile.

            From my experience clients become deaf when they hear the word extreme.
            From their perspective they understand all that there is to know about XP
            and interject false notions before you can deliver the message.

            Therefore I structure process management, expectation/participation and role
            conversations toward "client" benefits in the "way we do it...why it
            works...how it's done" delivery...let them mull it over and upon the next
            visit[s] gradually use the words agile and extreme. Hopefully by then
            you've won their trust.

            It's unfortunate, but you do what you've got to do until XP becomes more
            mainstream. IMO.

            This has worked for me...though I digress from the original #6 question.


            Wyatt



            > From: "haalis" <haalis@...>
            > Reply-To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:19:21 -0000
            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [XP] XP and McConnel
            >
            > 6. What is the negative sides of xp?
          • jim_mcfarland
            ... Yes, I think that everyone is referring to Steve McConnell. My two cents is that McConnell s books/methods and XP are only in conflict if you always do
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 1, 2002
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              --- In extremeprogramming@y..., "banshee858" <carlton.nettleton@d...>
              wrote:
              > Is McConnell the same Steve McConnell who wrote Rapid Development?
              > If so, he and Kent Beck seem to be required reading universities
              > today.

              Yes, I think that everyone is referring to Steve McConnell. My two
              cents is that McConnell's books/methods and XP are only in conflict
              if you always do things "by the book". 8-) Since all projects and
              people are different, and neither McConnell's approach or XP is a one
              size fits all solution, combining ideas from both would seem to be
              applicable on more projects that either one on its own would be.
              But, that's just my opinion... I have no data to back that up.

              I was reading McConnell's books, like "Code Complete" long before I
              had ever heard of XP, so maybe I am biased? I have read most of the
              XP books, and have been on two "XP" teams, but I value McConnell's
              philosophy on development just as much as Beck or Jeffries'.

              later...
              jim
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... I value his philosophy as much as Beck s. Like any rational man, I value my own most highly. ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com It is not because things
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 1, 2002
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                Around Friday, February 01, 2002, 1:27:59 PM, jim_mcfarland wrote:

                > I was reading McConnell's books, like "Code Complete" long before I
                > had ever heard of XP, so maybe I am biased? I have read most of the
                > XP books, and have been on two "XP" teams, but I value McConnell's
                > philosophy on development just as much as Beck or Jeffries'.

                I value his philosophy as much as Beck's. Like any rational man, I
                value my own most highly. ;->

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare,
                it is because we do not dare that they are difficult. --Seneca
              • Laurent Bossavit
                ... Maybe the first thing they need to get fixed is this kind of selective defect of their perceptual systems, not their software development process. I
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 1, 2002
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                  > From my experience clients become deaf when they hear the word
                  > extreme.

                  Maybe the first thing they need to get fixed is this kind of
                  selective defect of their perceptual systems, not their software
                  development process.

                  I know... the XP mindset is also about healing defective perceptual
                  systems. But how are you making the diagnosis without in fact using
                  one of these words ?

                  -[Morendil]-
                  On a clear disk you can seek forever
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