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      Date: 26 Dec 2001 16:16:54 -0000
      From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [XP] Digest Number 1745
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      There are 9 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Fragile Methodologies and XP Coaches
      From: acockburn@...
      2. Poll results for extremeprogramming
      From: extremeprogramming
      3. Re: Wikis With Widgets
      From: Simon Michael <simon@...>
      4. Pairing
      From: "Dalmo Serravalle" <dalmo@...>
      5. Re: Pairing
      From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
      6. Re: Re: Fragile Methodologies and XP Coaches
      From: Dan Palanza <dan@...>
      7. Re: Re: Fragile Methodologies and XP Coaches
      From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
      8. Re: Re: Fragile Methodologies and XP Coaches
      From: "Laurent Bossavit" <laurent@...>
      9. Re: Pairing
      From: "Michael Feathers" <mfeathers@...>


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      Message: 1
      Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:25:17 EST
      From: acockburn@...
      Subject: Re: Fragile Methodologies and XP Coaches

      <<So a relativistic position is one that takes context into account? Is
      that all you mean by it? Who would overtly say otherwise? (I agree
      that some folks might ACT otherwise ...)
      >>

      Yes, the key words are "overt" and "act".

      <<All you have to do is attach context to your recommendations if that's
      the issue ... but the chiding is because you say you can recommend
      anything, which seems an odd position for a consultant, especially one
      who likes to steer ..>>.

      I heard, was it Bacharach? or one of those award-winning croon song
      composers, discuss his composing. He said he was incapable of writing a "love
      song." But tell him a 40-year-old man walks into a smoky bar in which a
      single mom of two children is having a gin and tonic, and he'll have lyrics
      and song out in no time.

      At the time, I didn't understand that comment, it seemed backwards to me.
      Evidently now I understand.

      Ask me how to run a project, and I haven't a clue. There are too many
      variables. I certainly couldn't recommend 12 specific practices a priori, as
      some people seem to be willing to put into print (heh, heh). But put me in a
      project, and I can see all kinds of things to do. In fact (as you know), put
      me in a specific situation and there's almost no way I can't not do all kinds
      of things. "Verseworks" was probably the most hidden you'll see me.
      Management was so bad I had my head relatively in a bag.

      I.e., I can say, "Oh, in this situation! Well, we could do this and this or
      that and that." But given there are an uncountably finite (see wiki) number
      of such situations, I can't find a way to get into the business of
      enumerating the conditions and recommendations.

      Also, I distingush "giving advice" from "doing". That has not only to do with
      understanding the specificity of the boundary conditions, but also who
      answers for the results, combined with how many minutes I have to sit still.

      cheers - Alistair




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      Message: 2
      Date: 26 Dec 2001 02:20:26 -0000
      From: extremeprogramming
      Subject: Poll results for extremeprogramming


      The following extremeprogramming poll is now closed. Here are the
      final results:


      POLL QUESTION: What programming language do you use

      CHOICES AND RESULTS
      - Java, 75 votes, 41.90%
      - VB, 14 votes, 7.82%
      - C++, 28 votes, 15.64%
      - Smalltalk (or derivative), 10 votes, 5.59%
      - Other, 52 votes, 29.05%



      For more information about this group, please visit
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming

      For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
      http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/






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      Message: 3
      Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:28:39 -0800
      From: Simon Michael <simon@...>
      Subject: Re: Wikis With Widgets

      Phlip <pplumlee@...> writes:
      > The Zope wiki, ZWiki, I think has a mode where end-users can author
      > Zopeness straight into the pages. The docs describe this as "the
      > serengeti of Wikis".

      Oops.. was that hyperbole ? :)

      The pages on zwiki.org support embedded dtml (a zope templating language)
      by default - Kenneth feel free to try it out. I think your idea is a good
      one. As examples you might find http://zwiki.org/RecentChanges/editform
      or http://zwiki.org/ZwikiTracker interesting.

      Best regards
      -Simon


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      Message: 4
      Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:27:00 -0300
      From: "Dalmo Serravalle" <dalmo@...>
      Subject: Pairing

      I guess it is known and agreed by (almost) everyone in this list that Pair
      Programming is an important tool to improve the quality of code and share
      knowledge among the team. OK, I also agree.

      But the point is: Does the pairing stop here?
      I mean, what about Pair Integrating, Pair Deployment and Pair Whatever?
      Don't you think it would be a great idea to pair up people performing other
      tasks as well? Someone who is coding today, could be deploying a release
      tomorrow.


      Dalmo.
      Happy New Year!




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      Message: 5
      Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:13:34 -0500
      From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
      Subject: Re: Pairing

      Around Wednesday, December 26, 2001, 9:27:00 AM, Dalmo Serravalle wrote:

      > But the point is: Does the pairing stop here?
      > I mean, what about Pair Integrating, Pair Deployment and Pair Whatever?
      > Don't you think it would be a great idea to pair up people performing other
      > tasks as well? Someone who is coding today, could be deploying a release
      > tomorrow.

      Try it, see what happens. Let us know.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      You can observe a lot by watching. --Yogi Berra



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      Message: 6
      Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:50:17 -0500
      From: Dan Palanza <dan@...>
      Subject: Re: Re: Fragile Methodologies and XP Coaches

      Hi Alistair,

      Ron said:
      ><<All you have to do is attach context to your recommendations if that's
      >the issue ... but the chiding is because you say you can recommend
      >anything, which seems an odd position for a consultant, especially one
      >who likes to steer ..>>.

      Alistair replied:
      >I heard, was it Bacharach? or one of those award-winning croon song
      >composers, discuss his composing. He said he was incapable of writing a "love
      >song." But tell him a 40-year-old man walks into a smoky bar in which a
      >single mom of two children is having a gin and tonic, and he'll have lyrics
      >and song out in no time.

      If context is important when turning to relativistic reasoning, in such
      context why not separate forces versus solution? This is what double entry
      bookkeeping has been doing for six hundred years, in order to offer an
      ability to record a more accurate living history. It's also what Alexander
      did to design community and its buildings, also with great success--enough,
      at least, to attract the interest of a seemingly unrelated software
      development community.

      Perhaps the pattern form is key to a deeper understanding of Bacharach's
      success composing a love song, by making himself a player of love's
      context. Obviously, to get the full flavor of love's forces, which his song
      hopes to resolve, he needs to be in the heat of context to compose a
      resolution of love's unique forces. In other words, complex living forces
      seldom lend themselves to vicarious communication; experiencing the
      complexity is essential, if we are to know love in detail.

      Dealing with living structure, it seems to me, is the 'paradigm-shift'
      contributors such as Mike Beedle are shouting about, without much in the
      way of explanation, relative to various schools of agile development. I see
      the shift as a move from less detailed vicarious communication to more
      complex experiential communication.

      Experiential forces have always been there, but a computer's knack for
      images composed at the speed of light, makes living forces more easily
      resolved today than in previous generations. And so some of us have turned
      to creating compositions in the heat of battle--a pattern music's immediacy
      has enjoyed for a long time. XP is showing that whole teams, thanks to
      computation, and in the image of orchestration, can jump in as a unit, and
      resolve even greater degrees of complexity among living forces than one
      individual can ever hope to resolve.

      My experience finds that the language of living structures is communicated
      in recursive pattern form, typical of pattern language in its binary form,
      which the Chinese documented so well, 3000 years ago. Recursive binary
      pattern language's ability to differentiate categories of reasoning tends
      to prevent conversations from wandering into ever widening circles of
      confusion, as what you mean by "a relativistic position" seems to be in
      danger of.

      Dan

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      Message: 7
      Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:16:33 -0500
      From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
      Subject: Re: Re: Fragile Methodologies and XP Coaches

      Around Wednesday, December 26, 2001, 9:50:17 AM, Dan Palanza wrote:

      > Recursive binary pattern language

      Reference, please?

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Life tough is. Then die you do. --Yoda (personal communication)



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      Message: 8
      Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:28:28 +0100
      From: "Laurent Bossavit" <laurent@...>
      Subject: Re: Re: Fragile Methodologies and XP Coaches

      > My experience finds that the language of living structures is
      > communicated in recursive pattern form, typical of pattern language in
      > its binary form, which the Chinese documented so well, 3000 years ago.

      That's the "I Ching" thingie, right ?




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      Message: 9
      Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:59:17 -0500
      From: "Michael Feathers" <mfeathers@...>
      Subject: Re: Pairing


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Dalmo Serravalle" <dalmo@...>
      > But the point is: Does the pairing stop here?
      > I mean, what about Pair Integrating, Pair Deployment and Pair Whatever?
      > Don't you think it would be a great idea to pair up people performing
      other
      > tasks as well? Someone who is coding today, could be deploying a release
      > tomorrow.

      I've seen teams try pairing customers, so that there would always be one
      person around to answer a question, but that became confusing. Hard to get
      the customer to "speak with one voice." Pair integrating? Well, that
      should happen anyway.

      Prior to XP, I had a pair of managers once. We had a team of about fifteen
      or twenty people and no one knew who they were really assigned to. It was a
      surprise at each review. But, it worked well because those two managers
      trusted each other implicitly and cooperated seamlessly.


      Michael Feathers
      www.objectmentor.com







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