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more mail logistics, sorry

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  • Steve Howell
    I am using Outlook from win98. I set it to plain text for sending, but then Outlook forces you to set a max line length for wrapping text. This is annoying.
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
      I am using Outlook from win98. I set it to plain text for sending, but
      then Outlook forces you to set a max line length for wrapping text. This
      is annoying. It seems like the sender should be able to send plain text
      with arbitrarily long paragraphs, and then readers on the other end will
      wrap them accordingly. For example, it seems silly for me to truncate
      lines to 75 characters, if some one on the other end can read them at 120
      characters per line.

      So, I have the following options:

      1) Keep sending plain text at 75 columns, and assume that most readers can
      view the emails in a window at least that wide. Readers who open their
      emails with smaller windows will see annoying wrapping, but it will still
      basically be readable, I hope.

      2) Turn on HTML mode. I have no idea what this will do to the recipients,
      but it scares me. (By the way, I was the one that sent the joke email
      about middle quoting with table, tr, and td tags. The email was sent as
      plain text. Sorry to folks with plain text that didn't get the joke, and
      even more apologies to anyone who actually saw the email rendered as HTML.)

      3) Chuck Outlook for another mail client. Any recommendations here? I
      like Outlook for its ease of setting up folders and for creating a rule to
      send all my XP mails to their own folder. I also like the fact that it's
      free (er, bundled). I don't mind spending $30 or $40 for a better client,
      though.

      Thanks,

      Steve Howell
    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Hash: SHA1 ... I used to use Eudora and liked it but later versions seemed glommy. And they completely dropped support for the version I had, essentially
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
        -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
        Hash: SHA1

        Around Monday, October 01, 2001, 2:07:55 PM, Steve Howell wrote:

        > 3) Chuck Outlook for another mail client. Any recommendations
        > here? I like Outlook for its ease of setting up folders and for
        > creating a rule to send all my XP mails to their own folder. I
        > also like the fact that it's free (er, bundled). I don't mind
        > spending $30 or $40 for a better client, though.

        I used to use Eudora and liked it but later versions seemed glommy.
        And they completely dropped support for the version I had,
        essentially
        blackmailing me into upgrading. Needless to say that worked just fine
        ...

        Now I use TheBat! from http://www.ritlabs.com/ . It was recommended
        to
        me by someone long ago and far away. I have come to like it a lot.
        Support is pretty good, with emails answered usually within a day.
        And
        it's basically just some guys, not a big company. I like that.

        TheBat! has folders, filters, and can integrate with PGP for those of
        you who are thinking that a little encryption capability might come
        in
        handy some day soon. I'll PGP sign this message as a demo.

        It has separate message templates by account and by folder. It's got
        lots of cool stuff, actually.

        It took me a little while to get used to TheBat! The documentation
        consists of nothing much but help, so there is some fumbling at the
        beginning. But I like it and wouldn't go back to Eudora. And there's
        nothing in the universe that would put me on Outlook: I'm not a
        Microsoft hater, but I hate Outlook and it is surely the main target
        for email client hackers.

        One person's opinion, that's all.

        Ronald E Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it
        means.
        --Inigo Montoya
        ya

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      • Buddha Buck
        ... I think part of the problem is that those of us who prefer people to send 80-character lines feel that a paragraph is several lines, preferably separated
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
          At 11:07 AM 10-01-2001 -0700, Steve Howell wrote:
          >I am using Outlook from win98. I set it to plain text for sending, but
          >then Outlook forces you to set a max line length for wrapping text. This
          >is annoying. It seems like the sender should be able to send plain text
          >with arbitrarily long paragraphs, and then readers on the other end will
          >wrap them accordingly. For example, it seems silly for me to truncate
          >lines to 75 characters, if some one on the other end can read them at 120
          >characters per line.

          I think part of the problem is that those of us who prefer people to send
          80-character lines feel that a paragraph is several lines, preferably
          separated by a blank line. I don't view "arbitrarily long paragraphs"
          equivalent to "arbitrarily long lines" -- and its the second that we
          complain about.

          There are two ways to deal with the wrapping/long lines issue -- wrapping
          by sender and wrapping by receiver. Both methods, when used alone, work
          perfectly fine. Both methods can even work together without too much
          problems. But using neither method tends to fail horribly -- it looks bad,
          it generates complaints, etc. And since many systems, especially
          traditional Unix-derivative email systems, don't do wrap-upon-receipt, it's
          best that plain-text email be wrap-by-sender.

          That also falls into the standard dictum: Be conservative in what you
          send, be liberal in what you accept. Any system can handle short lines --
          so sending short lines is conservative. But someone may send you long
          lines which need to be wrapped, so being able to wrap long lines is liberal.

          >So, I have the following options:
          >
          > 1) Keep sending plain text at 75 columns, and assume that most readers can
          >view the emails in a window at least that wide. Readers who open their
          >emails with smaller windows will see annoying wrapping, but it will still
          >basically be readable, I hope.

          Readers who open their emails with smaller windows already see annoying
          wrapping in the majority of posts to this group (and elsewhere -- 80 column
          lines is a pervasive net-standard). It won't cause them any further hardships.

          > 2) Turn on HTML mode. I have no idea what this will do to the recipients,
          >but it scares me. (By the way, I was the one that sent the joke email
          >about middle quoting with table, tr, and td tags. The email was sent as
          >plain text. Sorry to folks with plain text that didn't get the joke, and
          >even more apologies to anyone who actually saw the email rendered as HTML.)

          Ugh...


          >3) Chuck Outlook for another mail client. Any recommendations here? I
          >like Outlook for its ease of setting up folders and for creating a rule to
          >send all my XP mails to their own folder. I also like the fact that it's
          >free (er, bundled). I don't mind spending $30 or $40 for a better client,
          >though.

          I use two email clients at work -- Outlook, because it's my company's
          standard, and Eudora, because I wanted to keep my corporate email separate
          from my non-corporate mail.

          I've found Eudora easier to create folders and filter rules with than
          Outlook, and Eudora has several other features that could be useful -- the
          ability to create multiple "personalities", each of which has different
          mail setting (addresses, maildrops, etc), ease of selecting from multiple
          .sigs, better quoting features, etc. Out of the two, I prefer Eudora. I
          wouldn't use Outlook if I wasn't basically required to.

          Eudora comes in 3 modes: "Free Mode", which has some features turned off,
          but doesn't cost anything; "Paid Mode", which is full featured, but costs
          money (how much, I'm not sure), and "Sponsored Mode", which is also full
          featured, but requires you to have a small square advertising block in your
          email client whenever you use Eudora, but otherwise doesn't cost
          anything. I use the Sponsored Mode, and I mostly tune out the ad. As I've
          been writing this, it's been advertising Eudora (which seems rather
          pointless, but perhaps they ran out of paying sponsors).

          >Thanks,
          >
          >Steve Howell
          >
          >
          >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          >ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Ron Jeffries
          Yellgroup mail users. I see that your email cannot handle PGP signed mail. Sorry to hear that. Ronald E Jeffries www.XProgramming.com The Great and Powerful Oz
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
            Yellgroup mail users.

            I see that your email cannot handle PGP signed mail. Sorry to hear
            that.

            Ronald E Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
          • Steve Howell
            From: Buddha Buck ... can ... still ... column ... hardships. ... Thanks for your well-thought-out explanation. It clarified a lot. I think
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
              From: Buddha Buck <bmbuck@...>
              > At 11:07 AM 10-01-2001 -0700, Steve Howell wrote:
              > > 1) Keep sending plain text at 75 columns, and assume that most readers
              can
              > >view the emails in a window at least that wide. Readers who open their
              > >emails with smaller windows will see annoying wrapping, but it will
              still
              > >basically be readable, I hope.
              >
              > Readers who open their emails with smaller windows already see annoying
              > wrapping in the majority of posts to this group (and elsewhere -- 80
              column
              > lines is a pervasive net-standard). It won't cause them any further
              hardships.
              >

              Thanks for your well-thought-out explanation. It clarified a lot.

              I think I'm just gonna set the wrap to 80 columns for now. I will
              eventually switch to TheBat! or Eudora.
            • Stefan Schmiedl
              ... Maybe in body, but not in spirit :-) That was the *only* time, I - kind of - won an argument with Ron :-) And, Ron, don t think that I did not note your
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
                Ron Jeffries (2001-10-01 14:26):


                > Now I use TheBat! from http://www.ritlabs.com/ . It was recommended
                > to
                > me by someone long ago and far away. I have come to like it a lot.

                Maybe in body, but not in spirit :-)

                That was the *only* time, I - kind of - won an argument with Ron :-)

                And, Ron, don't think that I did not note your short liaisons with
                other mail clients.

                s.

                --
                Stefan Schmiedl
                EDV-Beratung, Programmierung, Schulung
                Loreleystr. 5, 94315 Straubing, Germany
                Tel. (0 94 21) 74 01 06 Fax (0 94 21) 74 01 21
                Public Key: http://xss.de/stefan.public

                Change used to be Constant
              • Stefan Schmiedl
                ... ... to continue my previous mail Now that I got Ron hooked on the bat (close your eyes for a second here), I have switched from my nt-system to a linux-box
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
                  Buddha Buck (2001-10-01 14:30):

                  > And since many systems, especially traditional
                  > Unix-derivative email systems, don't do
                  > wrap-upon-receipt, it's best that plain-text email be
                  > wrap-by-sender.

                  ... to continue my previous mail

                  Now that I got Ron hooked on the bat (close your eyes
                  for a second here), I have switched from my nt-system
                  to a linux-box and changed the mail client to mutt, who
                  can do all kinds of clever things in a console window.
                  mutts internal pager knows how to display different
                  quote levels with different colors and even puts *this*
                  in nice red. To show off even more, I set the editor to
                  vim which also offers "syntax coloring" for mails and
                  is clever enough to wrap paragraphs to an adjustable
                  line width. So once I hit r, vim opens, a short 3}
                  later I am on the quoted text and happily hit gq}
                  which wraps all of the mail nicely.

                  Of course, I am much faster with this than my partner
                  using some fancy GUI mail client and a modern
                  contraption called rat or something like that.

                  Aaaah, the wonders of the keyboard :-)

                  --
                  Stefan Schmiedl
                  EDV-Beratung, Programmierung, Schulung
                  Loreleystr. 5, 94315 Straubing, Germany
                  Tel. (0 94 21) 74 01 06 Fax (0 94 21) 74 01 21
                  Public Key: http://xss.de/stefan.public

                  vim rules!
                • Niclas Olofsson
                  ... I believe the old fashion standar was 72. That gives you level 4 quoting Text ... Cheers, /Niclas
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
                    > At 11:07 AM 10-01-2001 -0700, Steve Howell wrote:
                    > > 75 characters

                    Buddha Buck wrote:
                    > 80-character

                    I believe the old fashion standar was 72. That gives you level 4 quoting

                    Text
                    > Text
                    > > Text
                    > > > Text
                    > > > > Text

                    Cheers,
                    /Niclas
                  • Ron Jeffries
                    ... It doesn t count. Wasn t an argument. ;- ... That was long ago, and in another land. And besides, the software is scrubbed from my hard drive. Ronald E
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
                      Around Monday, October 01, 2001, 3:18:39 PM, Stefan Schmiedl wrote:

                      >> Now I use TheBat! from http://www.ritlabs.com/ . It was recommended
                      >> to
                      >> me by someone long ago and far away. I have come to like it a lot.

                      > Maybe in body, but not in spirit :-)

                      > That was the *only* time, I - kind of - won an argument with Ron :-)

                      It doesn't count. Wasn't an argument. ;->

                      > And, Ron, don't think that I did not note your short liaisons with
                      > other mail clients.

                      That was long ago, and in another land. And besides, the software is
                      scrubbed from my hard drive.

                      Ronald E Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      The practices are not the knowing: they are a path to the knowing.
                    • Stefan Schmiedl
                      ... sigh ... :( s.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
                        Ron Jeffries (2001-10-01 16:43):

                        > > That was the *only* time, I - kind of - won an argument with Ron :-)
                        >
                        > It doesn't count. Wasn't an argument. ;->
                        >

                        sigh ... :(

                        s.
                      • Darren Hobbs
                        ... Er, thats me (in a roundabout fashion). This email address is actually a filter/redirect that lets me bounce list traffic to wherever I am, to stop my
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 2, 2001
                          --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
                          > Yellgroup mail users.
                          >
                          > I see that your email cannot handle PGP signed mail. Sorry to hear
                          > that.
                          >

                          Er, thats me (in a roundabout fashion). This email address is
                          actually a filter/redirect that lets me bounce list traffic to
                          wherever I am, to stop my office email filling up when I'm away, plus
                          I can change ISP / job without re-establishing all my lists. I'm
                          lazy that way. Sorry if my employer spammed you. Think I'll use the
                          web interface in future.

                          -Darren
                        • Jim.Hyslop
                          ... No, no, no. The correct response was Yes, it was, thereby opening the door to a Monty Python review (see? It s programming related - Python). -- Jim
                          Message 12 of 13 , Oct 2, 2001
                            Stefan Schmiedl <s@...> wrote:
                            > Ron Jeffries (2001-10-01 16:43):
                            >
                            > > > That was the *only* time, I - kind of - won an argument with Ron :-)
                            > >
                            > > It doesn't count. Wasn't an argument. ;->
                            > >
                            >
                            > sigh ... :(
                            No, no, no.

                            The correct response was "Yes, it was," thereby opening the door to a Monty
                            Python review (see? It's programming related - Python).

                            --
                            Jim
                          • Ron Jeffries
                            ... That s not an argument, it s simple contradiction. Ronald E Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself. (I am
                            Message 13 of 13 , Oct 2, 2001
                              Around Tuesday, October 02, 2001, 11:15:29 AM, Jim.Hyslop wrote:

                              > Stefan Schmiedl <s@...> wrote:
                              >> Ron Jeffries (2001-10-01 16:43):
                              >>
                              >> > > That was the *only* time, I - kind of - won an argument with Ron :-)
                              >> >
                              >> > It doesn't count. Wasn't an argument. ;->
                              >> >
                              >>
                              >> sigh ... :(
                              > No, no, no.

                              > The correct response was "Yes, it was," thereby opening the door to a Monty
                              > Python review (see? It's programming related - Python).

                              That's not an argument, it's simple contradiction.

                              Ronald E Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself.
                              (I am large, I contain multitudes.) --Walt Whitman
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