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Re: [XP] Digest Number 1500

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  • Dale Emery
    Hi Dave, ... Yes. Stop speculating about how the managers would respond. Talk to them, and listen to what they really say. Dale
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 1, 2001
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      Hi Dave,

      > The standard answers to issues like these are listed below, but
      > none of them have ever felt very satisfying, so right below them I
      > have listed the answer that I would expect from management. Is
      > there anything else that anyone can suggest?

      Yes. Stop speculating about how the managers would respond. Talk to
      them, and listen to what they really say.

      Dale
    • Christopher Hart
      Dave, Don t sell the company on Courage. Courage implies risk, and most people avoid risk. It s better to begin implementing XP practices one by one, gathering
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 1, 2001
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        Dave,

        Don't sell the company on Courage. Courage implies risk, and most people
        avoid risk. It's better to begin implementing XP practices one by one,
        gathering some metrics for the benefits, and then demonstrating results.
        Don't mention XP. After you generate some enthusiasm, describe how you can
        get even better results and then do it. Still don't mention XP. After you
        change the culture to accept all twelve XP practices as normal, then you can
        casually mention XP. Use the Stone Soup story from "The Pragmatic
        Programmer." Good luck!

        Best Regards,

        Chris

        Christopher Hart
        President & CTO
        Hart Edwards Corporation, Inc.
        Tel: 303-402-9883 ext 117
        Mobile: 720-231-6616

        Enterprise and Network Management Solutions

        Proprietary and Confidential Correspondence
        Copyright (c) 2001 Hart Edwards Corporation, Inc. All rights reserved.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <dstorrs@...>
        To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 12:36 PM
        Subject: Selling the company on Courage (was Re: [XP] Digest Number 1500)


        > --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
        > > Around Sunday, September 30, 2001, 1:05:09 PM, Dave Storrs wrote:
        > >
        > > > Any thoughts, anyone?
        > >
        > > Yeah. Give up. Do our best and wait for the old farts to die off. No,
        > > bad idea. I _am_ an old fart! I guess I don't know how to sell the
        > > stuff. That's why I'm a techie, not a salesman.
        > >
        > > Ronald E Jeffries
        >
        > I'm not sure if you're
        >
        > (A) joking
        > (B) gently chiding me for giving up
        > (C) castigating me for giving up
        > (D) some combination of the above
        > (E) something else.
        >
        > So which is it? :>
        >
        > My post was meant very seriously...I believe that selling the company
        > on the idea of Courage would be a sufficient requirement for getting
        > them to try full-blown XP. I haven't been able to get them to do that
        > yet, and it's been very frustrating...largely because I couldn't
        > understand why I couldn't get them to do it. Now I see what the
        > problem is, and all I have to do is solve it.
        >
        > Certainly talking to the CTO and the other more technically-minded
        > managers will help...we share more points of reference. I understand
        > that Rome wasn't built in a day and I'll just have to keep at it. But
        > I'm *not* a salesman, and I'm asking for specific advice from the
        > people who do this for a living...e.g., consultants and coaches. (This
        > includes you, Ron, old fart or not. :>)
        >
        > So again...any ideas?
        >
        > Dave
        >
        >
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      • Steve Ropa
        ... Darn it! I was halfway through a lengthy reply, and you turn around and boil it down to one paragraph! I would just add that we also need to stop selling
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 1, 2001
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          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Christopher Hart [mailto:hart@...]
          > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 10:44 AM
          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: Selling the company on Courage (was Re: [XP]
          > Digest Number
          > 1500)
          >
          >
          >
          > Dave,
          >
          > Don't sell the company on Courage. Courage implies risk, and
          > most people
          > avoid risk. It's better to begin implementing XP practices one by one,
          > gathering some metrics for the benefits, and then
          > demonstrating results.
          > Don't mention XP. After you generate some enthusiasm,
          > describe how you can
          > get even better results and then do it. Still don't mention
          > XP. After you
          > change the culture to accept all twelve XP practices as
          > normal, then you can
          > casually mention XP. Use the Stone Soup story from "The Pragmatic
          > Programmer." Good luck!
          >
          > Best Regards,
          >
          > Chris
          >
          > Christopher Hart
          > President & CTO
          > Hart Edwards Corporation, Inc.
          > Tel: 303-402-9883 ext 117
          > Mobile: 720-231-6616
          >
          > Enterprise and Network Management Solutions
          >
          > Proprietary and Confidential Correspondence
          > Copyright (c) 2001 Hart Edwards Corporation, Inc. All rights reserved.
          >
          Darn it! I was halfway through a lengthy reply, and you turn around and
          boil it down to one paragraph! I would just add that we also need to stop
          selling management short. Managers generally are more courageous than we
          think, they just apply it in different directions. Of course, we know of at
          least one President and CTO that had the courage to do XP! ;-)

          Steve
        • Matthew Davis
          ... the ... always ... On ... most ... It may have to do with tax law and capitalizable and uncapitalizable expenses. I won t pretend to understand it
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 1, 2001
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            --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Dave Storrs <dstorrs@d...> wrote:
            > XP: Doing our design incrementally, by way of The Planning Game and
            the
            > unit tests, allows us to be more responsive to your needs. We are
            always
            > working on the highest priority stories, and we can give you a
            > better-than-usual estimate of what you will get by a certain date.
            >
            > [ok, actually, I can't think of why management would object to this.
            On
            > the other hand, this is the single practice that my boss has been
            most
            > resistant to...and I have yet to understand his reasons for it.]

            It may have to do with tax law and "capitalizable" and
            "uncapitalizable" expenses. I won't pretend to understand it all, but
            I know that my boss has concerns that without a detailed up-front
            requirements document, we won't be able to put our dev costs in the
            best possible tax situation.

            Other possible concerns:

            M: You mean I have to take time to meet with you all every two weeks
            just to tell you to keep going?

            or

            M: Every two weeks?! QA is already 3 months behind, they'd all quit
            if we started giving them a new release to test every two weeks!
            Besides, we already know that a full regression takes 4 weeks to
            complete. And no, they can't automate it - I just told you they're
            three months behind, they just don't have the time to automate it.

            -Matthew
            azami@...
          • Ron Jeffries
            ... P: How often do you open your eyes when you are driving home? Steering a million dollar
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 2, 2001
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              Around Monday, October 01, 2001, 2:55:37 PM, Matthew Davis wrote:

              > M: You mean I have to take time to meet with you all every two weeks
              > just to tell you to keep going?

              P: How often do you open your eyes when you are driving home? Steering
              a <insert how many million dollars this project is worth here> million
              dollar project is worth a half day of your time -- or your designated
              representative -- every two weeks.

              > or

              > M: Every two weeks?! QA is already 3 months behind, they'd all quit
              > if we started giving them a new release to test every two weeks!
              > Besides, we already know that a full regression takes 4 weeks to
              > complete. And no, they can't automate it - I just told you they're
              > three months behind, they just don't have the time to automate it.

              P: It takes us an average of <your number, probably >=3> cycles
              through QA to get the code released. In that time, what's our lost
              revenue? What are the other opportunity costs of that much delay?

              P: We'll write the acceptance tests: we have to anyway, so that we'll
              know when we're done and so that we can deliver clean code to QA.
              We're trying to get the number of cycles through there as low as we
              can.

              Ronald E Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              It's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking
              than to think your way into a new way of acting. --Millard Fuller
            • Darren Hobbs
              ... Absolutely spot on. This is almost exactly the reponse I got when pushing for frequent releases. Along with the our process doesn t allow for frequent
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 3, 2001
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                --- In extremeprogramming@y..., "Matthew Davis" <azami@s...> wrote:
                >
                > M: Every two weeks?! QA is already 3 months behind, they'd all
                > quit if we started giving them a new release to test every two
                > weeks!
                > Besides, we already know that a full regression takes 4 weeks to
                > complete. And no, they can't automate it - I just told you they're
                > three months behind, they just don't have the time to automate it.
                >
                Absolutely spot on. This is almost exactly the reponse I got when
                pushing for frequent releases. Along with the "our process doesn't
                allow for frequent releases and all this 'iterative' nonsense so we
                won't do it, and we can't change the process because the PHB's have
                decreed it so". I _so_ wanted to say, "I see, so what you're saying
                is that our software process is more important than the actual
                software it is supposed to help us produce?". We were a couple of
                floors up next to a big window so I kept my mouth shut.

                -Darren
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