Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: XP Crash and Burn (Re: [XP] Poll results for extremeprogramming)

Expand Messages
  • Laurent Bossavit
    Niclas, What would you do differently, next time around ? -[Morendil]- Why isn t phonetic spelled the way it sounds ?
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 30 1:13 PM
      Niclas,

      What would you do differently, next time around ?


      -[Morendil]-
      Why isn't 'phonetic' spelled the way it sounds ?
    • Niclas Olofsson
      ... If delivery is everything, well then it was a success. I acctually got this question (if it was a success or not) after our first release. I said that no,
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 30 4:13 PM
        Steve Freeman wrote:
        > I don't yet understand what you mean by this project crashing and
        > burning. Did it fail to deliver? Did the team break up? Did it
        > deliver, but the wrong thing?

        If delivery is everything, well then it was a success. I acctually got
        this question (if it was a success or not) after our first release. I
        said that no, it is not. Obviously there was more to it than just
        delivery. We wanted to try XP and if nothing else, foster a more agile
        working environment. That project failed but we stopped it in time to
        start another project, with the same agenda when it comes to code
        delivery. That time with only a minimal and experienced crew, working
        day and night, entirely focuzed on deliver at a surtain date.
        That (new) project, I kidd you not, made no attempt to claim humanity as
        a parameter and it will probably cost us most of the motivation for at
        least 2-3 very devoted developers (me included) the next couple of
        months. It's a startup, we can't afford the delay and we don't get paid
        overtime.
        I think you could say that the team broke up. Before this project we
        used to resort to gaming at least a couple of nights a week. Sometimes
        even at lunch time. We don't do that anymore.

        > My experience is that people who have an eye for refactoring (and are
        > sufficiently anal to do it) have it from the start, although it can be
        > encouraged. It's the hardest discpline to acquire in a team. On the
        > other hand, learning to let go of your code so it can get better
        > (while we've got a martial arts thread going...) does take experience.

        Could it be (just an observation) that some programmers do refactory
        simply out of respect and because they care. Refactory doesn't really
        change the functionality of the application, does it. Often all you do
        is increase the readability of the code for the next sucker messing with
        it. You make it more modular so that people easier can add
        functionality, or you make it less modular so that people doesn't have
        to wonder what the heck this code here is doing here when there isn't
        any other code using it anyway. Test driven programming makes miracles
        when it comes to this. You end up doing less code, in half the time,
        with less bugs. And when you have a test suite you trust with both your
        heart and brain, refactory is really something to enjoy. If you happen
        to have an editor like Intellij.. well nothing could make you happier
        :-)

        Cheers,
        /Niclas
      • emeade@geekfarm.org
        ... are ... can be ... the ... experience. ... really ... do ... with ... have ... isn t ... miracles ... your ... happen ... happier ... Your right, a lot of
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 30 5:14 PM
          --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Niclas Olofsson <gurun@a...> wrote:
          > Steve Freeman wrote:
          > > My experience is that people who have an eye for refactoring (and
          are
          > > sufficiently anal to do it) have it from the start, although it
          can be
          > > encouraged. It's the hardest discpline to acquire in a team. On
          the
          > > other hand, learning to let go of your code so it can get better
          > > (while we've got a martial arts thread going...) does take
          experience.
          >
          > Could it be (just an observation) that some programmers do refactory
          > simply out of respect and because they care. Refactory doesn't
          really
          > change the functionality of the application, does it. Often all you
          do
          > is increase the readability of the code for the next sucker messing
          with
          > it. You make it more modular so that people easier can add
          > functionality, or you make it less modular so that people doesn't
          have
          > to wonder what the heck this code here is doing here when there
          isn't
          > any other code using it anyway. Test driven programming makes
          miracles
          > when it comes to this. You end up doing less code, in half the time,
          > with less bugs. And when you have a test suite you trust with both
          your
          > heart and brain, refactory is really something to enjoy. If you
          happen
          > to have an editor like Intellij.. well nothing could make you
          happier
          > :-)
          >
          > Cheers,
          > /Niclas

          Your right, a lot of refactoring is improving the readablity of the
          code, but don't forget another goal of refactoring is improving the
          design of the code.

          --
          Erik Meade emeade@...
          Senior Consultant Object Mentor, Inc.
          http://www.junit.org
        • C. Keith Ray
          ... So... the original XP project was 8 developers for 4 months, replaced (4 months after initiation?) by a non-XP project of 3 developers for 2 months. Do you
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 30 5:29 PM
            on 9/30/01 4:13 PM, Niclas Olofsson at gurun@... wrote:

            > Steve Freeman wrote:
            >> I don't yet understand what you mean by this project crashing and
            >> burning. Did it fail to deliver? Did the team break up? Did it
            >> deliver, but the wrong thing?
            >
            > If delivery is everything, well then it was a success. I acctually got
            > this question (if it was a success or not) after our first release. I
            > said that no, it is not. Obviously there was more to it than just
            > delivery. We wanted to try XP and if nothing else, foster a more agile
            > working environment. That project failed but we stopped it in time to
            > start another project, with the same agenda when it comes to code
            > delivery. That time with only a minimal and experienced crew, working
            > day and night, entirely focuzed on deliver at a surtain date.
            > That (new) project, I kidd you not, made no attempt to claim humanity as
            > a parameter and it will probably cost us most of the motivation for at
            > least 2-3 very devoted developers (me included) the next couple of
            > months. It's a startup, we can't afford the delay and we don't get paid
            > overtime.
            >
            > I think you could say that the team broke up. Before this project we
            > used to resort to gaming at least a couple of nights a week. Sometimes
            > even at lunch time. We don't do that anymore.

            So... the original XP project was 8 developers for 4 months, replaced (4
            months after initiation?) by a non-XP project of 3 developers for 2 months.

            Do you think things would have been better if the original XP project had
            been 4 people instead of 8?

            Do you think things would have been better if the original XP project had
            two-week iterations?

            Do you think things would have been better if the original XP project had
            used "Process Reviews" for an hour each iteration?

            You mentioned that refactoring led to feelings of "lack of respect"
            (experienced people not respecting the less-experienced?) and
            "newbies even told me that they think XP gives to little
            visibility to themselves"
            does this mean that the less-experienced ended up resenting the
            more-experienced?

            I know that refactoring code "behind someone's back" can lead to
            resentment... did your team pair-program with the original coder when
            refactoring their code?

            Refactoring code "in front of someone's back" can also lead to resentment,
            if you not very diplomatic about it.

            However, if the code was written by a pair rather than a solo, there is
            usually less personal feelings about the code. Was all code produced by
            pairs?

            Could you describe how successful your team was at doing these practices...
            * Release and Iteration Planning
            * Programmers sign up for tasks
            * Pair programming
            * On-site customer
            * Small releases
            * Metaphor
            * Unit Tests (test-first)
            * Acceptance Tests
            * Merciless Refactoring
            * Simple design
            * Collective code ownership
            * Coding Standard
            * Continuous integration
            * Open workspace
            * Sustainable Pace aka 40-hour week

            (I notice that <http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules.html> says "Fix XP
            when it breaks".)
          • Ron Jeffries
            ... OK ... ... Did you do a release plan? What planned velocity did you use to start with? What ship date was predicted by the release plan? What was your real
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 30 5:33 PM
              Around Sunday, September 30, 2001, 12:34:26 AM, Niclas Olofsson wrote:

              >> P.S. Could you tell us more about what went wrong? How long were your
              >> iterations? How far into the project before you could tell things
              >> weren't going well?

              > I guess I could, but I'm pretty convinced that we made every mistake and
              > suffered from all drawbacks that can possible exist with an XP type
              > project. I think you'd be better off just asking questions. First some
              > background and then I'll try to answer your questions as good as I can.

              OK ...

              > The project team consist of a mixture of experienced developers aswell
              > as pretty fresh out of university (with 6 months to 1 years experience).
              > It's pretty much 50/50 and in total the project had 8 developers. The
              > time frame for the project was set to be both challenging and realistic,
              > but also took in consideration that this was a first timer with a "new"
              > methology, thus I would estimate that another 30-40% was added for
              > "pedagogic" reasons. All in all it was estimated that 4 months would do
              > the trick, though 1 month vacation was included. Since we do product
              > development our CTO was appointed on-site customer. The project itself
              > was about developing a 2'nd generation of one of our products. My role
              > in this has been the one of the system architect, and team leader.

              Did you do a release plan? What planned velocity did you use to start
              with? What ship date was predicted by the release plan? What was your
              real velocity?

              > Iterations. Our plan was to do very short iterations (less than a week
              > to begin with), we also wanted to practice continuos integration, thus
              > we would have R&D releases more or less the whole time (3-6 times a
              > day). We also invested quite a lot of time into getting CruiseControl up
              > and running and integrated with our SCM tool (perforce). Some of us have
              > done these things our own way before, so I think it would be fair to say
              > that many of us knew what it means. So far we have managed to do 2
              > organized releases, both which have been controlled chaos. I should
              > perhaps point out that we have not yet missed a deadline so in that
              > respect the project hasn't yet failed.

              How many stories can you schedule into a "less than a week" iteration?
              What do you mean when you say you have not yet missed a deadline?

              > How far into the project you I/we tell that things where going in the
              > wrong direction? Well, dare I say .. a couple of months before it even
              > started?! From my point of view XP isn't something that you just start
              > "practice" in the way you sometimes can do with RUP and the alike.

              I am aware of no reason to imagine that you can just start doing RUP.
              First of all you have to look at each of the 1451 items and decide
              whether to do it ... then you have to figure out what it is ...

              > I
              > have the feeling it has to be evangelized. I happen to know the guys I'm
              > working with quite well so I think we started the process of selling it
              > in almost 3-4 months before we sat down and decided to have a go at it.
              > During this time I had long and hard discussions with all of the
              > involved (including management) about what XP is and isn't. By now I
              > think I can quote almost anything from any XP book out there, not to
              > mention all the web pages and emails about it. The goal was not to have
              > everyone sold on the concept, but rather a few selected (which have
              > shown great interest in it) and have the others curious and in an
              > acceptable state. But I really wanted everybody to _understand_ what it
              > is, to be able to make an educated decision whetever they want it or
              > not. Well, with cards on the table I know that not everyone did
              > understand, thus the project should really never have started in the
              > first place. We do communicate a lot with each other (always has been
              > that way) but the one noticeable difference now from before is the lack
              > of respect that somehow developed during this period. I think that was
              > what in the end made it fail (*).

              Tell us more about that, if you don't tell us more below ...

              > We never managed to satisfy the egos either. 2 of the newbies even told
              > me that they think XP gives to little visibility to themselves.
              > Personally I fail to see the relevance of that, but I still suspect it
              > to be part of why it failed, perhaps some of them even wanted it too.

              I'd like to hear more about that. What kind of visibility did they
              want? Why do they feel they didn't have it?

              > Ron asked "How did the process seem to let you down?". Well, look at it
              > like this. Most of us are used to NOT accept that it is the users that
              > are doing things wrong, but it is the programmer that doesn't to what
              > the user want. If you want to have an easy way out just apply that to
              > the process and you know it's not the people that is the problem. Or how
              > do you suggest I explain to this group that we all failed at the same
              > time, all in our own way?

              I was really asking something more like "what was unsuccessful about
              the project and why didn't you have enough feedback from the practices
              to know that there was trouble in time to do something about it"?

              > But I don't think the reason for this to fail has really anything to do
              > with XP. Just that from now on I know 18 people that will think it has,
              > so much easier to live with that explanation.

              I don't understand ...

              > In the end, how it was done, was a real classic. A couple of heroic
              > programmers, working day and night for a month and a half, to deliver
              > something that they felt they could be proud of and that would satisfy
              > the customer. Jell on us, and we love it.

              Well, if you like it, keep doing it, I guess ...

              > (*) I should perhaps add that I think merciless refactory was what
              > started that trend (at least that's what I'm told). People say that
              > there is a factor 100 on experienced programmers, and this tend to show
              > during refactory. Less good programmers sometimes (if not always) have a
              > hard time not taking it personally.

              So you are saying that some programmers changed code that other
              programmers had written, without involving the first programmers?

              Were you practicing pair programming? What percent of the time? When
              code seemed to need refactoring, did you pair with one of the original
              authors?

              Finally, here are the XP practices. Please rate your project on
              whether, and how well, they were done. A score and a comment will be
              interesting. Thanks!

              On-Site Customer
              Planning Game (Release and Iteration Planning)
              Small Releases
              Acceptance Tests

              Simple Design
              Unit Tests
              Test-First?
              Pair Programming
              Refactoring

              Continuous Integration
              Collective Code Ownership
              Coding Standard
              Metaphor
              Sustainable Pace.

              Ronald E Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
            • Ron Jeffries
              ... Great question, Keith! ;- Ronald E Jeffries www.XProgramming.com You can observe a lot by watching. --Yogi Berra
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 30 5:36 PM
                Around Sunday, September 30, 2001, 8:29:01 PM, C. Keith Ray wrote:

                > Could you describe how successful your team was at doing these practices...

                Great question, Keith! ;->

                Ronald E Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                You can observe a lot by watching. --Yogi Berra
              • Niclas Olofsson
                ... I think that is what I mean, but perhaps not expressed in the most brilliant way :-) I think that in my world good design and readibility pretty much goes
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 30 8:33 PM
                  emeade@... wrote:
                  > but don't forget another goal of refactoring is improving the
                  > design of the code.

                  Yepp, I agree. Let me repeat myself:
                  > > you make it more modular so that people easier can add functionality, or you
                  > > make it less modular so that people doesn't have to wonder what the heck
                  > > this code here is doing here when there isn't any other code using it
                  > > anyway

                  I think that is what I mean, but perhaps not expressed in the most
                  brilliant way :-) I think that in my world good design and readibility
                  pretty much goes hand in hand. I did some real-time programming earlier
                  where this is not always the case.

                  Cheers,
                  /Niclas
                • ericheikkila@yahoo.com
                  ... acctually got ... release. I ... agile ... time to ... working ... humanity as ... for at ... get paid ... we ... Sometimes ... replaced (4 ... months. ...
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 1, 2001
                    --- In extremeprogramming@y..., "C. Keith Ray" <ckeithray@h...> wrote:
                    > on 9/30/01 4:13 PM, Niclas Olofsson at gurun@a... wrote:
                    >
                    > > Steve Freeman wrote:
                    > >> I don't yet understand what you mean by this project crashing and
                    > >> burning. Did it fail to deliver? Did the team break up? Did it
                    > >> deliver, but the wrong thing?
                    > >
                    > > If delivery is everything, well then it was a success. I
                    acctually got
                    > > this question (if it was a success or not) after our first
                    release. I
                    > > said that no, it is not. Obviously there was more to it than just
                    > > delivery. We wanted to try XP and if nothing else, foster a more
                    agile
                    > > working environment. That project failed but we stopped it in
                    time to
                    > > start another project, with the same agenda when it comes to code
                    > > delivery. That time with only a minimal and experienced crew,
                    working
                    > > day and night, entirely focuzed on deliver at a surtain date.
                    > > That (new) project, I kidd you not, made no attempt to claim
                    humanity as
                    > > a parameter and it will probably cost us most of the motivation
                    for at
                    > > least 2-3 very devoted developers (me included) the next couple of
                    > > months. It's a startup, we can't afford the delay and we don't
                    get paid
                    > > overtime.
                    > >
                    > > I think you could say that the team broke up. Before this project
                    we
                    > > used to resort to gaming at least a couple of nights a week.
                    Sometimes
                    > > even at lunch time. We don't do that anymore.
                    >
                    > So... the original XP project was 8 developers for 4 months,
                    replaced (4
                    > months after initiation?) by a non-XP project of 3 developers for 2
                    months.
                    >
                    > Do you think things would have been better if the original XP
                    project had
                    > been 4 people instead of 8?
                    >
                    > Do you think things would have been better if the original XP
                    project had
                    > two-week iterations?
                    >
                    > Do you think things would have been better if the original XP
                    project had
                    > used "Process Reviews" for an hour each iteration?
                    >
                    > You mentioned that refactoring led to feelings of "lack of respect"
                    > (experienced people not respecting the less-experienced?) and
                    > "newbies even told me that they think XP gives to little
                    > visibility to themselves"
                    > does this mean that the less-experienced ended up resenting the
                    > more-experienced?
                    >
                    > I know that refactoring code "behind someone's back" can lead to
                    > resentment... did your team pair-program with the original coder
                    when
                    > refactoring their code?
                    >
                    > Refactoring code "in front of someone's back" can also lead to
                    resentment,
                    > if you not very diplomatic about it.
                    >
                    > However, if the code was written by a pair rather than a solo,
                    there is
                    > usually less personal feelings about the code. Was all code
                    produced by
                    > pairs?
                    >
                    > Could you describe how successful your team was at doing these
                    practices...
                    > * Release and Iteration Planning
                    > * Programmers sign up for tasks
                    > * Pair programming
                    > * On-site customer
                    > * Small releases
                    > * Metaphor
                    > * Unit Tests (test-first)
                    > * Acceptance Tests
                    > * Merciless Refactoring
                    > * Simple design
                    > * Collective code ownership
                    > * Coding Standard
                    > * Continuous integration
                    > * Open workspace
                    > * Sustainable Pace aka 40-hour week
                    >
                    > (I notice that <http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules.html>
                    says "Fix XP
                    > when it breaks".)


                    Good questions.

                    As far as the 'refactoring behind someones back' stuff goes....WTF is
                    that all about? It's not *your* code, it's *our* (the teams) code.
                    Get over it. Your code is ugly, and can always be improved. Time to
                    put the egos away and get some real work done.

                    -Eric
                  • Jim McFarland
                    ... Related to this discussion of the blame for a possible XP project failure is another issue I think is important. That issue is that in my career, I have
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 1, 2001
                      --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
                      > Around Sunday, September 30, 2001, 8:29:01 PM, C. Keith Ray wrote:
                      >
                      > > Could you describe how successful your team was at doing these practices...
                      >
                      > Great question, Keith! ;->

                      Related to this discussion of the blame for a possible XP project failure is another issue I think is important. That issue is that in my career, I have yet to see a company/team that executed their process to perfection. Whether the process was ad hoc, heavyweight, lightweight, RUP, XP, etc., there were always mistakes made, and the process was violated at some point. I think that the measure of success has usually been in how disciplined the team members were in sticking with the process when things got tough. The really successful projects I have been on had very disciplined, mature developers who both prevented crisis situations and stepped up when things did get tough.

                      I have been on non-XP teams which produced high quality work without getting burned out, and have also been on XP teams which did not achieve high quality. It leads me to believe that it is people more than the specific process that matter most. It also brings up the issue of how well XP can do in an imperfect world? I tend to think that successful XP depends on highly disciplined developers, which seem to be the minority in my experience. XP also seems to be a fragile as any other process model. If people do not stick with the process all the time, an XP team could make a bigger mess than a team using a less extreme process model who also does not stick to the process all the time. The teams who have the high discipline and skill levels will succeed more often, no matter process is in place, or even despite the process, which I have also seen. Anyway, just an observation...

                      later...
                      jim
                    • Brian C. Robinson
                      ... Visibility in terms of showing off to the boss? I started my current job in January having just graduated with my BS in CS in December. I ve tried very
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 1, 2001
                        At 11:34 PM 9/29/01, you wrote:
                        >We never managed to satisfy the egos either. 2 of the newbies even told
                        >me that they think XP gives to little visibility to themselves.
                        >Personally I fail to see the relevance of that, but I still suspect it
                        >to be part of why it failed, perhaps some of them even wanted it too.

                        Visibility in terms of showing off to the boss? I started my current job
                        in January having just graduated with my BS in CS in December. I've tried
                        very hard to not only do good work but help the team do good work and
                        people have noticed. I got a mid year raise which is uncommon in my
                        company due to an annual raise schedule. I feel like the environment of an
                        XP project has really allowed me to toot my own horn more than if I was
                        sitting in my cube with my headphones on all day.

                        Of course, my goal isn't to increase my standing in the company but to
                        create good software and have a good time. It might all be an attitude thing.
                      • Matthew Davis
                        ... When the two are not the same, you do not fully understand the code you are refactoring. -Matthew azami@speakeasy.net
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 1, 2001
                          --- In extremeprogramming@y..., emeade@g... wrote:
                          > Your right, a lot of refactoring is improving the readablity of the
                          > code, but don't forget another goal of refactoring is improving the
                          > design of the code.

                          When the two are not the same, you do not fully understand the code
                          you are refactoring.

                          -Matthew
                          azami@...
                        • Matthew Davis
                          ... is ... to ... You know, I wish someone here would refactor _my_ code. I m probably the only one really commited to improving our (legacy) source base,
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 1, 2001
                            --- In extremeprogramming@y..., ericheikkila@y... wrote:
                            > As far as the 'refactoring behind someones back' stuff goes....WTF
                            is
                            > that all about? It's not *your* code, it's *our* (the teams) code.
                            > Get over it. Your code is ugly, and can always be improved. Time
                            to
                            > put the egos away and get some real work done.

                            You know, I wish someone here would refactor _my_ code. I'm probably
                            the only one really commited to improving our (legacy) source base,
                            even though everyone admits it's a good idea.

                            I think my code is good, and I'm not 100% sure I'd take it well if
                            someone refactored it, but I _am_ 100% sure that if someone can
                            improve my code, I can learn from what they do.

                            So: along with "don't get p4d if someone improves your code" I'd add
                            "don't hesitate to improve someone else's code".

                            -Matthew
                            azami@...
                          • Steve Ropa
                            Of course, you can always give them the visibility they desire. Depending on their personalities, you can show them that visibility as a newbie isn t
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 2, 2001
                              Of course, you can always give them the visibility they desire. Depending on
                              their personalities, you can show them that visibility as a newbie isn't
                              everything its cracked up to be, by having them present some idea or pet
                              project to the rest of the team. Then let the team examine it extremely
                              closely and publicly. I suspect, however that it isn't visibility they are
                              lacking as much as attention. Spending a little extra time with them one on
                              one, or even pairing with them yourself(assuming you are the coach) might
                              make the difference.

                              Ideally you look for "youngsters" like Brian here, but if your programmers
                              are just too into "visibility", maybe they are in the wrong organization.
                              To paraphrase Mr.Fowler "change your programmer, or change your programmer"

                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Brian C. Robinson [mailto:brian.c.robinson@...]
                              > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:16 PM
                              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: XP Crash and Burn (Re: [XP] Poll results for
                              > extremeprogramming)
                              >
                              >
                              > At 11:34 PM 9/29/01, you wrote:
                              > >We never managed to satisfy the egos either. 2 of the
                              > newbies even told
                              > >me that they think XP gives to little visibility to themselves.
                              > >Personally I fail to see the relevance of that, but I still
                              > suspect it
                              > >to be part of why it failed, perhaps some of them even wanted it too.
                              >
                              > Visibility in terms of showing off to the boss? I started my
                              > current job
                              > in January having just graduated with my BS in CS in
                              > December. I've tried
                              > very hard to not only do good work but help the team do good work and
                              > people have noticed. I got a mid year raise which is uncommon in my
                              > company due to an annual raise schedule. I feel like the
                              > environment of an
                              > XP project has really allowed me to toot my own horn more
                              > than if I was
                              > sitting in my cube with my headphones on all day.
                              >
                              > Of course, my goal isn't to increase my standing in the
                              > company but to
                              > create good software and have a good time. It might all be
                              > an attitude thing.
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                              >
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                              >
                              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • Dale Emery
                              Hi Steve, ... Or perhaps appreciation. Dale
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 2, 2001
                                Hi Steve,

                                > I suspect, however that it isn't visibility they are lacking as
                                > much as attention.

                                Or perhaps appreciation.

                                Dale
                              • Kenneth Tyler
                                The East Bay Extreme Programming User Group is meeting this Tuesday at 7 PM at the Coquelet Coffee Shop in Berkeley. Our meetings are informal and always
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 2, 2001
                                  The East Bay Extreme Programming User Group is meeting this Tuesday at 7
                                  PM at the Coquelet Coffee Shop in Berkeley. Our meetings are informal and
                                  always include a lot of discussion about recent work, good books, and other
                                  good things to know from the participants

                                  This week we are looking at Features, how are they generated and
                                  prioritized, as part of a
                                  month spent thinking about the "client" side of xp. You can see the full
                                  schedule at
                                  www.tinyxp.com

                                  See you there,
                                  Kenneth Tyler, 510 849 0788
                                  Here is the location information.
                                  The Coquelet Cafe Restaurant is located at 2000 University Ave, Berkeley,
                                  CA 94704 (it's four or five blocks away from the downtown Berkeley Bart
                                  Station and parking is usually not too bad after six o'clock)
                                  http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn%2Ftwn-map_results&random=1
                                  168&event=find_search&uid=u0yeudpbj5.6daee%3Ab01wbnu6y&SNVData=3mad3-9.fy%25
                                  28at2u67_%2529f82u67%253bah7-%253d%253a%2528_%253d%253abad672%253d%253d1su67
                                  2%253d0%2Crb%253b7&country=United+States&address=2000%20University%20Ave&cit
                                  y=Berkeley&State=CA&Zip=94704&Find+Map=Get+Map





                                  >
                                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                  >
                                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                  extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                  >
                                  > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Steve Ropa
                                  Dale, Exactly. Sometimes I think we forget how important a little Hey, good job! is. One of the nice things about a common work environment is that every
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 2, 2001
                                    Dale,

                                    Exactly. Sometimes I think we forget how important a little "Hey, good
                                    job!" is. One of the nice things about a common work environment is that
                                    every pat on the back becomes a public pat on the back.

                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Dale Emery [mailto:dale@...]
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:05 AM
                                    > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: XP Crash and Burn (Re: [XP] Poll results for
                                    > extremeprogramming)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Steve,
                                    >
                                    > > I suspect, however that it isn't visibility they are lacking as
                                    > > much as attention.
                                    >
                                    > Or perhaps appreciation.
                                    >
                                    > Dale
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                    >
                                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                    >
                                    > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.