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Re: [XP] Re: justifying XP design principles

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  • Roger Lipscombe
    ... I was reading a passage about this very thing in Peopleware just last night. I ll try to dig out the reference when I get home, but essentially it said
    Message 1 of 14 , May 31, 2001
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      > >The organization is an organism. What to you may
      > >seem as benign growth may seem to the rest of the organization to be
      > >cancerous. Cultures have antibodies as well.

      I was reading a passage about this very thing in "Peopleware" just last
      night. I'll try to dig out the reference when I get home, but essentially
      it said that the only difference between a jelled-team and a clique was in
      the perception of those observing it.

      Cheers,
      Roger.
    • Morris, Chris
      ... Collective ownership and pair programming come to mind... Chris
      Message 2 of 14 , May 31, 2001
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        > > Some things XP promotes (intentionally or not) is to deny the self,
        > > assume the best of others, play well with others -- in general
        > > better social skills.
        >
        > In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen anything
        > like that.

        Collective ownership and pair programming come to mind...

        Chris
      • Ron Jeffries
        ... Collective ownership says *I* can improve anything *I* want to ... Pair programming says *I* can get anyone *I* need to help *me* ... I like this kind of
        Message 3 of 14 , May 31, 2001
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          Responding to Morris, Chris (02:46 PM 5/31/2001 -0500):
          > > In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen anything
          > > like that.
          >
          >Collective ownership and pair programming come to mind...

          Collective ownership says *I* can improve anything *I* want to ...

          Pair programming says *I* can get anyone *I* need to help *me* ...

          I like this kind of denial of self. ;->



          Ronald E Jeffries
          http://www.XProgramming.com
          http://www.objectmentor.com
        • azami@speakeasy.net
          ... anything ... But it makes - who was it, Ryan? - risk having to commit seppuku. -Matthew azami@speakeasy.net
          Message 4 of 14 , May 31, 2001
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            --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
            > Responding to Morris, Chris (02:46 PM 5/31/2001 -0500):
            > > > In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen
            anything
            > > > like that.
            > >
            > >Collective ownership and pair programming come to mind...
            >
            > Collective ownership says *I* can improve anything *I* want to ...
            >
            > Pair programming says *I* can get anyone *I* need to help *me* ...
            >
            > I like this kind of denial of self. ;->

            But it makes - who was it, Ryan? - risk having to commit seppuku.

            -Matthew
            azami@...
          • Michael C. Merrifield
            ... I think the typical practices of software development tend to focus on the needs of development itself. We do things in a manner that suits Development or
            Message 5 of 14 , May 31, 2001
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              Dale Emery wrote:

              > Hi Jason,
              >
              > > Some things XP promotes (intentionally or not) is to deny the self,
              > > assume the best of others, play well with others -- in general
              > > better social skills.
              >
              > In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen anything
              > like that.

              I think the typical practices of software development tend to focus
              on the needs of development itself. We do things in a manner that
              suits Development or manages risks that might impact Development.
              Spending lots of time on requirements to nail them down so we aren't
              changing direction constantly and spending lots of time on design so we
              don't paint ourselves into a corner...

              XP reminds us that we are not our own customer. This implies other
              oriented (i.e. Customer oriented) development. It's important to make
              progress the Customer can touch and feel. It's important to allow the
              Customer to change her mind. In other words, Development puts the
              Customers needs ahead of its own.

              Mike
              --
              Michael C. Merrifield
              SDRC, Eugene, OR
            • Jason Rogers
              ... There is no My , Mine or I in team. There is no room for egos in XP. If anyone on the team has an ego problem, the team will quickly recognize it and
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 1 7:10 AM
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                > > Some things XP promotes (intentionally or not) is to deny the self,
                > > assume the best of others, play well with others -- in general
                > > better social skills.

                > In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen anything
                > like that.

                There is no "My", "Mine" or "I" in team. There is no room for egos in XP.
                If anyone on the team has an ego problem, the team will quickly recognize it
                and its mal-effects! It will most likely be diffused quickly.

                The fact that "I" can sign up for some task is misleading. Sure I choose
                what "I" would like to work on, but "I" don't work on it alone. "I" always
                have to have someone with me as my other half, therefore it isn't "I" it is
                "we". Even at sign-up time it is a potential "we."

                Again, these are my obsevations on XP. I am more than willing to be proved
                incorrect. However, I will say that my observations (which are constantly
                developing and emerging - much like the system in XP) have made XP eXtremely
                effective for me.

                -Jason
              • wecaputo@thoughtworks.com
                ... Without I , Team would have no meaning. Without group , Individual would have no meaning.
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 1 8:24 AM
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                  >> In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen anything
                  >> like that.

                  Jason Rogers:
                  >There is no "My", "Mine" or "I" in team. There is no room for egos in XP.

                  Without "I", "Team" would have no meaning.
                  Without "group", "Individual" would have no meaning.
                • Michael C. Feathers
                  ... From: ... That is a very real risk. When you help organizations change you have to be very aware of ecology. Michael ... Michael
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 4 4:44 AM
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <fadrian@...>
                    > Perhaps in your case. But one of the stories I am starting to hear a
                    > fair number of times (and enough to start setting off warning bells
                    > in my head - is this a "bad smell" in the process?) is about XP teams
                    > going off AND doing a good job BUT ignoring the dynamics between
                    > their groups and the rest of the organization AND subsequently
                    > getting trashed. The organization is an organism. What to you may
                    > seem as benign growth may seem to the rest of the organization to be
                    > cancerous. Cultures have antibodies as well. All I'm trying to say
                    > is that one ignores the cultural and social dynamics within an
                    > organization at their own risk and people should understand these
                    > forces as well - something that techies are not particularly good
                    > at.

                    That is a very real risk. When you help organizations
                    change you have to be very aware of ecology.

                    Michael


                    ---------------------------------------------------
                    Michael Feathers mfeathers@...
                    Object Mentor Inc. www.objectmentor.com
                    XP & OO Training/Mentoring/Development
                    www.xprogramming.com / www.junit.org
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