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RE: [XP] Re: justifying XP design principles

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  • Jason Rogers
    Dave, You could contact Rich Sheridan (rbsheridan@mediaone.net) or James Goebel (james.goebel@commerceone.com). These guys raised up the XP team at Interface
    Message 1 of 14 , May 31 5:37 AM
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      Dave,

      You could contact Rich Sheridan (rbsheridan@...) or James Goebel
      (james.goebel@...). These guys raised up the XP team at
      Interface Systems in Ann Arbor. They were embarking both in a completely
      new (and unknown) domain and a new process. Rich was the manager of the
      project (so he would probably have some good things to say to another
      manager type) and James was the coach/mentor. The project was a success.
      Need I say more?

      HTH.

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Dale Emery [mailto:dale@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 12:52 AM
      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [XP] Re: justifying XP design principles
      >
      >
      > Hi Dave,
      >
      > > Hopefully over the next couple of days I'm going to be able to
      > > meet with the CTO and argue him around. Does anyone have any
      > > suggestions on particular arguments to try?
      >
      > It sounds as if you're asking Isaac to do something that
      > feels very
      > risky for him. I'm guessing that you don't yet have
      > direct experience
      > with the design principles. If I were Isaac, and you
      > acted eager to
      > convince me of something you hadn't yet experienced, I
      > would become
      > more skeptical.
      >
      > Is there someone who does have the experience, and who
      > Isaac would
      > listen to?
      >
      > Dale
      >
      >
      >
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    • Jason Rogers
      ... I beg your pardon... Perhaps the misapplication of XP would do this. XP actually helped us to be involved with the rest of the organization much better!
      Message 2 of 14 , May 31 5:42 AM
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        > P.S. One of the great things about XP is that it focuses on the
        > relationship between the developers and customers and
        > code. One of
        > the terrible things about XP is that it focuses on the
        > relationship
        > between the developers and customers and code so much, it
        > makes it
        > easy to ignore the rest of the organization. You need to
        > remember
        > that you have an obligation to the other stakeholders in your
        > organization (including your CTO), especially when you're playing
        > with their money (and careers)...

        I beg your pardon... Perhaps the misapplication of XP would do this. XP
        actually helped us to be involved with the rest of the organization much
        better! It was the central melting pot between R&D and the rest of the
        organization!
      • fadrian@qwest.net
        ... this. XP ... much ... the ... Perhaps in your case. But one of the stories I am starting to hear a fair number of times (and enough to start setting off
        Message 3 of 14 , May 31 8:26 AM
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          --- In extremeprogramming@y..., "Jason Rogers" <jason.rogers@t...>
          wrote:

          > I beg your pardon... Perhaps the misapplication of XP would do
          this. XP
          > actually helped us to be involved with the rest of the organization
          much
          > better! It was the central melting pot between R&D and the rest of
          the
          > organization!

          Perhaps in your case. But one of the stories I am starting to hear a
          fair number of times (and enough to start setting off warning bells
          in my head - is this a "bad smell" in the process?) is about XP teams
          going off AND doing a good job BUT ignoring the dynamics between
          their groups and the rest of the organization AND subsequently
          getting trashed. The organization is an organism. What to you may
          seem as benign growth may seem to the rest of the organization to be
          cancerous. Cultures have antibodies as well. All I'm trying to say
          is that one ignores the cultural and social dynamics within an
          organization at their own risk and people should understand these
          forces as well - something that techies are not particularly good
          at. If your project succeeds but you're gone afterwards, you're not
          going to effect much change in the organization.

          This, of course, does not apply to those of you who are working from
          a green field or who want to use your present company to practice on
          while you construct your own green field :-).

          faa
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... Do you perceive that there is a difference in this regard between XP teams and teams in general? Seems to me that development teams in general don t pay
          Message 4 of 14 , May 31 10:29 AM
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            Responding to fadrian@... (03:26 PM 5/31/2001 +0000):
            >Perhaps in your case. But one of the stories I am starting to hear a
            >fair number of times (and enough to start setting off warning bells
            >in my head - is this a "bad smell" in the process?) is about XP teams
            >going off AND doing a good job BUT ignoring the dynamics between
            >their groups and the rest of the organization AND subsequently
            >getting trashed.

            Do you perceive that there is a difference in this regard between XP teams
            and teams in general? Seems to me that development teams in general don't
            pay enough attention to external human interfaces.

            >The organization is an organism. What to you may
            >seem as benign growth may seem to the rest of the organization to be
            >cancerous. Cultures have antibodies as well.

            Certainly there is truth here. The XP team on C3 had so much spirit that
            they turned people off. They didn't fit in to the staid and nearly backward
            culture in IT. That didn't work to their benefit as management structure
            changed around them. And they didn't manage far enough up the chair (three
            or more levels, by the way, so it wouldn't have been easy) to ensure that
            they had support and were serving all the needs.

            Again ... I don't see what happened as being related to XP, exept insofar
            as the team looked different and attracted lightning thereby. Most of the
            stuff was the same old big company stuff. Not to say we (I) shouldn't have
            done better ... just to say that XP wasn't adding to the problem, just
            experiencing the same old same old.

            >All I'm trying to say
            >is that one ignores the cultural and social dynamics within an
            >organization at their own risk and people should understand these
            >forces as well - something that techies are not particularly good
            >at. If your project succeeds but you're gone afterwards, you're not
            >going to effect much change in the organization.

            It is difficult to care much about this if the organization takes you out.
            If one is an itinerant change agent, of course, then things are different.

            >This, of course, does not apply to those of you who are working from
            >a green field or who want to use your present company to practice on
            >while you construct your own green field :-).

            Well, maybe it does. It's good to gain experience with all the levers and
            dials. ;->

            Regards,

            Ronald E Jeffries
            http://www.XProgramming.com
            http://www.objectmentor.com
          • Jason Rogers
            Some things XP promotes (intentionally or not) is to deny the self, assume the best of others, play well with others -- in general better social skills. The
            Message 5 of 14 , May 31 11:36 AM
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              Some things XP promotes (intentionally or not) is to deny the self, assume
              the best of others, play well with others -- in general better social
              skills. The most successful team (I think) will be the one that learns how
              to fit into the corporate culture without losing its sense of principles and
              devotion to practices. Sometimes that means being less rowdy - with our
              toys, with our noise (because bullpen style areas tend to be louder), etc.
              Sometimes it may mean more drastic modifications (no examples at this
              point).

              What I was trying to emphasize is that as a methodology, XP isn't just about
              successful deployment of practices and principles, it's about successful
              deployment of good software, which takes into account the relationships
              between the R&D team(s) and the rest of the company. There is always going
              to be some level of management, some degree of marketing, hopefully some
              presence of HR and Accounting (or else we don't get paid). My opinion of XP
              is that unlike any other methodology I know of, it actually thrives on the
              interaction of departments within the corporate structure. If I am wrong...
              I don't mind being corrected.

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: fadrian@... [mailto:fadrian@...]
              > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 11:26 AM
              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [XP] Re: justifying XP design principles
              >
              >
              > --- In extremeprogramming@y..., "Jason Rogers"
              > <jason.rogers@t...>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > I beg your pardon... Perhaps the misapplication of XP would do
              > this. XP
              > > actually helped us to be involved with the rest of the
              > organization
              > much
              > > better! It was the central melting pot between R&D and
              > the rest of
              > the
              > > organization!
              >
              > Perhaps in your case. But one of the stories I am
              > starting to hear a
              > fair number of times (and enough to start setting off
              > warning bells
              > in my head - is this a "bad smell" in the process?) is
              > about XP teams
              > going off AND doing a good job BUT ignoring the dynamics between
              > their groups and the rest of the organization AND subsequently
              > getting trashed. The organization is an organism. What
              > to you may
              > seem as benign growth may seem to the rest of the
              > organization to be
              > cancerous. Cultures have antibodies as well. All I'm
              > trying to say
              > is that one ignores the cultural and social dynamics within an
              > organization at their own risk and people should understand these
              > forces as well - something that techies are not particularly good
              > at. If your project succeeds but you're gone afterwards,
              > you're not
              > going to effect much change in the organization.
              >
              > This, of course, does not apply to those of you who are
              > working from
              > a green field or who want to use your present company to
              > practice on
              > while you construct your own green field :-).
              >
              > faa
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              >
              > Don't miss XP UNIVERSE, the first US conference on XP and
              > Agile Methods. Early registration discounts EXTENDED
              > until May 1, 2001. www.xpuniverse.com for details and
              > registration.
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Dale Emery
              Hi Jason, ... In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven t seen anything like that. Dale
              Message 6 of 14 , May 31 12:18 PM
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                Hi Jason,

                > Some things XP promotes (intentionally or not) is to deny the self,
                > assume the best of others, play well with others -- in general
                > better social skills.

                In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen anything
                like that.

                Dale
              • Roger Lipscombe
                ... I was reading a passage about this very thing in Peopleware just last night. I ll try to dig out the reference when I get home, but essentially it said
                Message 7 of 14 , May 31 12:36 PM
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                  > >The organization is an organism. What to you may
                  > >seem as benign growth may seem to the rest of the organization to be
                  > >cancerous. Cultures have antibodies as well.

                  I was reading a passage about this very thing in "Peopleware" just last
                  night. I'll try to dig out the reference when I get home, but essentially
                  it said that the only difference between a jelled-team and a clique was in
                  the perception of those observing it.

                  Cheers,
                  Roger.
                • Morris, Chris
                  ... Collective ownership and pair programming come to mind... Chris
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 31 12:46 PM
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                    > > Some things XP promotes (intentionally or not) is to deny the self,
                    > > assume the best of others, play well with others -- in general
                    > > better social skills.
                    >
                    > In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen anything
                    > like that.

                    Collective ownership and pair programming come to mind...

                    Chris
                  • Ron Jeffries
                    ... Collective ownership says *I* can improve anything *I* want to ... Pair programming says *I* can get anyone *I* need to help *me* ... I like this kind of
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 31 1:50 PM
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                      Responding to Morris, Chris (02:46 PM 5/31/2001 -0500):
                      > > In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen anything
                      > > like that.
                      >
                      >Collective ownership and pair programming come to mind...

                      Collective ownership says *I* can improve anything *I* want to ...

                      Pair programming says *I* can get anyone *I* need to help *me* ...

                      I like this kind of denial of self. ;->



                      Ronald E Jeffries
                      http://www.XProgramming.com
                      http://www.objectmentor.com
                    • azami@speakeasy.net
                      ... anything ... But it makes - who was it, Ryan? - risk having to commit seppuku. -Matthew azami@speakeasy.net
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 31 2:19 PM
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                        --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@a...> wrote:
                        > Responding to Morris, Chris (02:46 PM 5/31/2001 -0500):
                        > > > In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen
                        anything
                        > > > like that.
                        > >
                        > >Collective ownership and pair programming come to mind...
                        >
                        > Collective ownership says *I* can improve anything *I* want to ...
                        >
                        > Pair programming says *I* can get anyone *I* need to help *me* ...
                        >
                        > I like this kind of denial of self. ;->

                        But it makes - who was it, Ryan? - risk having to commit seppuku.

                        -Matthew
                        azami@...
                      • Michael C. Merrifield
                        ... I think the typical practices of software development tend to focus on the needs of development itself. We do things in a manner that suits Development or
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 31 2:59 PM
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                          Dale Emery wrote:

                          > Hi Jason,
                          >
                          > > Some things XP promotes (intentionally or not) is to deny the self,
                          > > assume the best of others, play well with others -- in general
                          > > better social skills.
                          >
                          > In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen anything
                          > like that.

                          I think the typical practices of software development tend to focus
                          on the needs of development itself. We do things in a manner that
                          suits Development or manages risks that might impact Development.
                          Spending lots of time on requirements to nail them down so we aren't
                          changing direction constantly and spending lots of time on design so we
                          don't paint ourselves into a corner...

                          XP reminds us that we are not our own customer. This implies other
                          oriented (i.e. Customer oriented) development. It's important to make
                          progress the Customer can touch and feel. It's important to allow the
                          Customer to change her mind. In other words, Development puts the
                          Customers needs ahead of its own.

                          Mike
                          --
                          Michael C. Merrifield
                          SDRC, Eugene, OR
                        • Jason Rogers
                          ... There is no My , Mine or I in team. There is no room for egos in XP. If anyone on the team has an ego problem, the team will quickly recognize it and
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 1, 2001
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                            > > Some things XP promotes (intentionally or not) is to deny the self,
                            > > assume the best of others, play well with others -- in general
                            > > better social skills.

                            > In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen anything
                            > like that.

                            There is no "My", "Mine" or "I" in team. There is no room for egos in XP.
                            If anyone on the team has an ego problem, the team will quickly recognize it
                            and its mal-effects! It will most likely be diffused quickly.

                            The fact that "I" can sign up for some task is misleading. Sure I choose
                            what "I" would like to work on, but "I" don't work on it alone. "I" always
                            have to have someone with me as my other half, therefore it isn't "I" it is
                            "we". Even at sign-up time it is a potential "we."

                            Again, these are my obsevations on XP. I am more than willing to be proved
                            incorrect. However, I will say that my observations (which are constantly
                            developing and emerging - much like the system in XP) have made XP eXtremely
                            effective for me.

                            -Jason
                          • wecaputo@thoughtworks.com
                            ... Without I , Team would have no meaning. Without group , Individual would have no meaning.
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 1, 2001
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                              >> In what way does XP promote denying the self? I haven't seen anything
                              >> like that.

                              Jason Rogers:
                              >There is no "My", "Mine" or "I" in team. There is no room for egos in XP.

                              Without "I", "Team" would have no meaning.
                              Without "group", "Individual" would have no meaning.
                            • Michael C. Feathers
                              ... From: ... That is a very real risk. When you help organizations change you have to be very aware of ecology. Michael ... Michael
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jun 4, 2001
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                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: <fadrian@...>
                                > Perhaps in your case. But one of the stories I am starting to hear a
                                > fair number of times (and enough to start setting off warning bells
                                > in my head - is this a "bad smell" in the process?) is about XP teams
                                > going off AND doing a good job BUT ignoring the dynamics between
                                > their groups and the rest of the organization AND subsequently
                                > getting trashed. The organization is an organism. What to you may
                                > seem as benign growth may seem to the rest of the organization to be
                                > cancerous. Cultures have antibodies as well. All I'm trying to say
                                > is that one ignores the cultural and social dynamics within an
                                > organization at their own risk and people should understand these
                                > forces as well - something that techies are not particularly good
                                > at.

                                That is a very real risk. When you help organizations
                                change you have to be very aware of ecology.

                                Michael


                                ---------------------------------------------------
                                Michael Feathers mfeathers@...
                                Object Mentor Inc. www.objectmentor.com
                                XP & OO Training/Mentoring/Development
                                www.xprogramming.com / www.junit.org
                                ---------------------------------------------------
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