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RE: When do you learn Patterns? (Was RE: [XP] Design Patterns and XP)

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  • Dinwiddie, George
    Marty, Did the study group continue to be worthwhile after it became mandatory? I ve tried the at-work study group bit a couple of times. It s never gone
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 1, 2001
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      Marty,

      Did the study group continue to be worthwhile after it became
      mandatory?

      I've tried the "at-work study group" bit a couple of times.
      It's never gone very far, but more for company and employment
      instabilities than for any inherent reason. Still, from the
      little experience I have, it seems like an uphill battle. It's
      hard to get people to put the effort into it.

      I haven't given up on the concept; I'm considering ways to
      bring it off here. But I'm thinking that Pair Programming
      (even more unlikely to happen here) is an easier vehicle for
      studying and spreading knowledge of things like Design Patterns.

      - George

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Marty Thorne [mailto:marty@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 7:11 PM
      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: When do you learn Patterns? (Was RE: [XP] Design Patterns
      and XP)


      At a previous employer, we started a lunch-time patterns study group. It
      was unbilled time, but very worthwhile. At a certain point, the
      employer/customer was so pleased with the results he turned it into a
      mandatory paid activity.

      - Marty
    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Yes. It s odd. It seems to take a couple-three people who are really into the topic. A bunch more show up and most of them kind of sit and listen. A few
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 1, 2001
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        At 08:08 AM 3/1/2001 -0500, it seemed like Dinwiddie, George wrote:
        >I've tried the "at-work study group" bit a couple of times.
        >It's never gone very far, but more for company and employment
        >instabilities than for any inherent reason. Still, from the
        >little experience I have, it seems like an uphill battle. It's
        >hard to get people to put the effort into it.

        Yes. It's odd. It seems to take a couple-three people who are really into
        the topic. A bunch more show up and most of them kind of sit and listen. A
        few kick in some ideas. Then it gets boring and people stop coming. Or it
        gets mandatory and people stop coming. Or work gets too busy and people
        stop coming. Or ...

        Maybe what it comes down to -- I'm saying this in the futile hope that I
        will learn it -- is that people only learn and change when they are ready.
        You can set the ideas out there, but not stuff them down their throats.

        And yet ... trying still seems better to me than not trying. I could be

        wrong ... I frequently am.

        Regards,

        Ronald E Jeffries
        http://www.XProgramming.com
        http://www.objectmentor.com
      • Robert C. Martin
        Being a software developer is like being a doctor. You have to stay up-to-date. You can argue that it is your employer s job to give you the time to do this;
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 6, 2001
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          Being a software developer is like being a doctor. You have to stay
          up-to-date. You can argue that it is your employer's job to give you the
          time to do this; but I wouldn't entrust something this important to my
          employer.

          I would not be embarrassed about taking time at work to learn things like
          patterns. I would also be more than willing to learn them at home.

          Robert C. Martin | "Uncle Bob" | Software Consultants
          Object Mentor Inc. | rmartin@... | We'll help you get
          PO Box 5757 | Tel: (800) 338-6716 | your projects done.
          565 Lakeview Pkwy | Fax: (847) 573-1658 | www.objectmentor.com
          Suite 135 | | www.XProgramming.com
          Vernon Hills, IL, | Training and Mentoring | www.junit.org
          60061 | OO, XP, Java, C++, Python|

          "One of the great commandments of science is:
          'Mistrust arguments from authority.'" -- Carl Sagan


          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Michael Finney [mailto:mfinney@...]
          > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 8:37 AM
          > To: 'extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com'
          > Subject: When do you learn Patterns? (Was RE: [XP] Design Patterns and
          > XP)
          >
          >
          > When do you explicitly study Patterns; on the job or off?
          >
          > Michael Finney
          > Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform
          > Sun Certified Developer for the Java 2 Platform
          >
          >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Michael C. Feathers [SMTP:mfeathers@...]
          > > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 7:22 AM
          > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: Re: [XP] Design Patterns and XP
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > >
          > > > XP is a lot about testing and refactoring( & a lot more).
          > > > Where do design patterns fit in with XP?
          > >
          > > Design patterns are great to know. If you read them
          > > and try them out they sink into your subconscious
          > > and enhance your sense of good design.
          > >
          > > When working test-first, I find that I don't actively
          > > shoot for various patterns, but they often arrive in
          > > my code as I get rid of duplication or conditional
          > > logic.
          > >
          > > Michael
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------------------------
          > > Michael Feathers mfeathers@...
          > > Object Mentor Inc. www.objectmentor.com
          > > XP & OO Training/Mentoring/Development
          > > www.xprogramming.com / www.junit.org
          > > ---------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
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        • J. B. Rainsberger
          ... Always. I have the Design Patterns CD. I read about patterns whenever I had a spare moment. Then I made sure that I tried using them in the software I was
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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            --- In extremeprogramming@y..., Michael Finney <mfinney@n...> wrote:
            > When do you explicitly study Patterns; on the job or off?

            Always.

            I have the Design Patterns CD. I read about patterns whenever I had a
            spare moment. Then I made sure that I tried using them in the
            software I was writing. You can start simple: singleton,
            observer/observable, and so on... then, if you run across a component
            that screams for a specific pattern, then there is no better thing to
            do than try it. Especially if you're programming test-first, then
            there is no problem with ripping it all out and trying again when
            your pattern doesn't fit. You'll know what tests the component as a
            whole needs to pass, and you'll be able to stay focused on making
            that happens.

            I find it best to reread pattern descriptions on a regular basis.
            Failing that, whenever you have a component to write and think, "I
            *know* there's a pattern for this..." go look it up and use it. If it
            takes an hour to figure out which pattern it was you thought you
            needed, then that's fine. You know you'll save that hour later when
            you find out that the pattern was perfect and that you didn't have to
            sweat over the finer points of the design.

            JBR.
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