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RE: [XP] Pilot Project in XP

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  • Larmore, Edward
    I ve heard of acceptance tests, but I m not sure how those differ from the tests we (the programmers) are writing. What are they? Can you point me to a
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 1 11:18 AM
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      I've heard of acceptance tests, but I'm not sure how those differ from the
      tests we (the programmers) are writing. What are they? Can you point me to a
      reference that has examples?

      -Ed Larmore
      R a t i o n a l
      the e-development company


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Javier Campoamor [mailto:campoamor@...]
      Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:58 AM
      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [XP] Pilot Project in XP


      He should write the acceptance test. And he can do his own work not related
      with the development (read a book is a nice work, not too hard).

      And better than the phone contact would be the NetMeeting contact. You can
      share the applications and show him everything that you want.

      Regards

      Javier



      > -----Mensaje original-----
      > De: Larmore, Edward [mailto:elarmore@...]
      > Enviado el: jueves 1 de febrero de 2001 19:45
      > Para: Extremeprogramming2 (E-mail)
      > CC: Eric Larsen (E-mail); virbots@...
      > Asunto: [XP] Pilot Project in XP
      >
      >
      > I'm new to XP, and decided to learn by doing. Two friends and I
      > started last
      > night on implementing a game, called Ader's Cage, in Java. One of the
      > friends is playing the customer, and the other friend and I are a
      > programming pair. It is my first XP project. Here are some of the
      > observations I made.
      >
      > The biggest lesson I learned last night was that writing tests
      > first helps a
      > lot. Once a given test is written, implementing the method being
      > tested is a
      > piece of cake. It really is a revolutionary idea.
      >
      > Another lesson I learned is that pair programming helps keep the code
      > simple, because you're constantly bouncing ideas back and forth with your
      > partner. But you have to actively resist the temptation to design for the
      > future.
      >
      > One of the problems I had was trying to keep the customer from getting
      > bored. I had him write down user stories. When he was done with
      > that, I had
      > him rank them by priority. When he was done with that, I didn't
      > know what to
      > do with him. He asked if phone contact would be sufficient in the
      > future. I
      > explained that XP encourages an on-site customer at all times.
      > Should I ask
      > him to bring a book to read next time, or is phone contact good enough?
      >
      > -Ed Larmore
      > R a t i o n a l
      > the e-development company
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
      >
      > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
      >
      >


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    • Ron Jeffries
      ... Marvelous report, Ed, and congratulations for trying it. Sounds like a good experience. Real customers have real jobs they can do while they are with you.
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 1 12:04 PM
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        At 10:45 AM 2/1/2001 -0800, it seemed like Larmore, Edward wrote:
        >One of the problems I had was trying to keep the customer from getting
        >bored. I had him write down user stories. When he was done with that, I had
        >him rank them by priority. When he was done with that, I didn't know what to
        >do with him. He asked if phone contact would be sufficient in the future. I
        >explained that XP encourages an on-site customer at all times. Should I ask
        >him to bring a book to read next time, or is phone contact good enough?

        Marvelous report, Ed, and congratulations for trying it. Sounds like a good
        experience.

        Real customers have real jobs they can do while they are with you. And you
        probably knew the game very well. IRL the customer sits through the
        planning and estimating process, explains the stories, observes the tasking
        (and often observes that we didn't understand the story). Then s/he goes
        back to her day job, staying on call for questions. Phone can work. If you
        have real questions for the customer, observe how ready you are to just
        talk across the room vs how [un]willing to call on the phone. Should give
        you an appreciation for having them there.

        For an experiment, sure, reading a book or surfing is just fine.

        Great stuff! Congrats again!

        Ronald E Jeffries
        http://www.XProgramming.com
        http://www.objectmentor.com
      • Ron Jeffries
        ... XPI Chapters 5 and 6. In general acceptance tests would test the whole game in some way, unit tests tend to test single classes or small clusters of
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 1 12:07 PM
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          At 11:18 AM 2/1/2001 -0800, it seemed like Larmore, Edward wrote:
          >I've heard of acceptance tests, but I'm not sure how those differ from the
          >tests we (the programmers) are writing. What are they? Can you point me to a
          >reference that has examples?

          XPI Chapters 5 and 6.

          In general acceptance tests would test the whole game in some way, unit
          tests tend to test single classes or small clusters of classes. Acceptance
          tests would look like a game-playing script, and from the unit tests you
          might not even be able to tell it was a game.

          Regards,


          >-Ed Larmore
          >R a t i o n a l
          >the e-development company
          >
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: Javier Campoamor [mailto:campoamor@...]
          >Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:58 AM
          >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: RE: [XP] Pilot Project in XP
          >
          >
          >He should write the acceptance test. And he can do his own work not related
          >with the development (read a book is a nice work, not too hard).
          >
          >And better than the phone contact would be the NetMeeting contact. You can
          >share the applications and show him everything that you want.
          >
          >Regards
          >
          >Javier
          >
          >
          >
          > > -----Mensaje original-----
          > > De: Larmore, Edward [mailto:elarmore@...]
          > > Enviado el: jueves 1 de febrero de 2001 19:45
          > > Para: Extremeprogramming2 (E-mail)
          > > CC: Eric Larsen (E-mail); virbots@...
          > > Asunto: [XP] Pilot Project in XP
          > >
          > >
          > > I'm new to XP, and decided to learn by doing. Two friends and I
          > > started last
          > > night on implementing a game, called Ader's Cage, in Java. One of the
          > > friends is playing the customer, and the other friend and I are a
          > > programming pair. It is my first XP project. Here are some of the
          > > observations I made.
          > >
          > > The biggest lesson I learned last night was that writing tests
          > > first helps a
          > > lot. Once a given test is written, implementing the method being
          > > tested is a
          > > piece of cake. It really is a revolutionary idea.
          > >
          > > Another lesson I learned is that pair programming helps keep the code
          > > simple, because you're constantly bouncing ideas back and forth with your
          > > partner. But you have to actively resist the temptation to design for the
          > > future.
          > >
          > > One of the problems I had was trying to keep the customer from getting
          > > bored. I had him write down user stories. When he was done with
          > > that, I had
          > > him rank them by priority. When he was done with that, I didn't
          > > know what to
          > > do with him. He asked if phone contact would be sufficient in the
          > > future. I
          > > explained that XP encourages an on-site customer at all times.
          > > Should I ask
          > > him to bring a book to read next time, or is phone contact good enough?
          > >
          > > -Ed Larmore
          > > R a t i o n a l
          > > the e-development company
          > >
          > >
          > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          > >
          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          > >
          > > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          >Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
          >
          >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          >Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com


          Ronald E Jeffries
          http://www.XProgramming.com
          http://www.objectmentor.com
        • Eric Herman
          ... had In addition to writing and ranking stories, the customer is also in charge of acceptance tests. In addition to writing the stories, you might ask him
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 1 12:46 PM
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            > >One of the problems I had was trying to keep the customer from getting
            > >bored. I had him write down user stories. When he was done with that, I
            had

            In addition to writing and ranking stories, the customer is also in charge
            of acceptance tests. In addition to writing the stories, you might ask him
            to attach a test definition.

            If you don't have automated acceptance testing yet, this could be as simple
            as a usage script written on the back of the user story card:
            "Open Browser, go to development main page, enter "TestUser" and
            "TestPass". At welcome screen? Yes: Pass!"

            For each story, there should be at least one test definition, right? Plus
            testing error conditions and some combinations of input and such. Just like
            the unit tests, these functional tests will accumulate quickly.

            And these all need to be run regularly ... hopefully as each new story that
            is signed off by the customer as completed, but at least at the end of each
            iteration. If you don't yet have automated acceptance tests, your customer
            needs to be doing a lot of by hand testing. The customer may even find
            themselves swamped after only a couple of iterations.

            Eric Herman
            Product Sight
          • Larmore, Edward
            ... Actually, I ve never played the game. I hadn t even heard of it until a week ago! :) -Ed Larmore R a t i o n a l the e-development company
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 1 1:38 PM
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              > And you probably knew the game very well.

              Actually, I've never played the game. I hadn't even heard of it until a week
              ago! :)

              -Ed Larmore
              R a t i o n a l
              the e-development company
            • Nicholas DiPiazza
              THANKS FOR ALL THE BOOKS EVERYONE!!! I m very thankful for your help. Oh and by the way.... Who are the authors of The c++ programming language, Design
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 1 4:38 PM
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                THANKS FOR ALL THE BOOKS EVERYONE!!! I'm very thankful for your help.
                Oh and by the way....
                Who are the authors of The c++ programming language, Design Patterns, and
                C++ FAQ?

                Nicholas
              • Larmore, Edward
                Nicholas- It wasn t clear from your original message whether you are putting C++ to practice at your job or at home. If you are, don t read the rest of this
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 1 5:06 PM
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                  Nicholas-

                  It wasn't clear from your original message whether you are putting C++ to
                  practice at your job or at home. If you are, don't read the rest of this
                  message.

                  Books are great. I have lots of them. But all the reading in the world isn't
                  going to teach you like putting it to practice. I recommend that you pick
                  something to work on for fun, like a game. And then implement it in C++ (or
                  whatever language you settle on). Buy a cheap compiler from CompUSA or
                  something, install it, and start programming! That is what I did (and still
                  doing), and it got me my current job as a Java programmer.

                  -Ed

                  > Sorry to everyone on this list for being a question only kind of member
                  but
                  > I lack the experience I see that most of you have. I have yet another
                  > question for any of the gracious folks on the list to answer for me if
                  they
                  > like.

                  > well im definatly going to program primarily in c++... I love OOP... but I
                  > am afraid that I'm not getting the correct reading materials for the job.
                  I
                  > have read through SAMS Teach yourself c++ in 24 hrs (more like 24 days)
                  and
                  > both of Meyer's effective c++ books (which i really enjoyed and learned a
                  > lot from). These are the three basic books I have learned the majority of
                  > what I know about c++ from but I am now confronted with a dead end. I have
                  > of course purchased Bjarne's The evolution of C++ and I'm now confused
                  where
                  > I should go next. Does anyone have any good books out there to recommend
                  to
                  > a future OOP programmer.. Does anyone suggest I should dip my nose into
                  any
                  > other languages for my benefit's sake?

                  > Once again I thank everyone for answering my questions so open
                  heartedly...
                  > I'm sorry I'm not able to answer any of your own questions but I hope to
                  in
                  > the future!

                  > nicholas


                  -Ed Larmore
                  R a t i o n a l
                  the e-development company


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Nicholas DiPiazza [mailto:firelord@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 4:39 PM
                  To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [XP] Pilot Project in XP


                  THANKS FOR ALL THE BOOKS EVERYONE!!! I'm very thankful for your help.
                  Oh and by the way....
                  Who are the authors of The c++ programming language, Design Patterns, and
                  C++ FAQ?

                  Nicholas


                  To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                  Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                • Javier Campoamor
                  The c++ programming language (Stroupstrup) Design Patterns (Gamma) C++ FAQ (Marshall P. Cline, Greg A. Lomow, Mike Girou)
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 2 12:58 AM
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                    The c++ programming language (Stroupstrup)
                    Design Patterns (Gamma)
                    C++ FAQ (Marshall P. Cline, Greg A. Lomow, Mike Girou)

                    > -----Mensaje original-----
                    > De: Nicholas DiPiazza [mailto:firelord@...]
                    > Enviado el: viernes 2 de febrero de 2001 1:39
                    > Para: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    > Asunto: RE: [XP] Pilot Project in XP
                    >
                    >
                    > THANKS FOR ALL THE BOOKS EVERYONE!!! I'm very thankful for your help.
                    > Oh and by the way....
                    > Who are the authors of The c++ programming language, Design Patterns, and
                    > C++ FAQ?
                    >
                    > Nicholas
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                    >
                    >
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