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RE: [XP] Pilot Project in XP

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  • Javier Campoamor
    He should write the acceptance test. And he can do his own work not related with the development (read a book is a nice work, not too hard). And better than
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 1, 2001
      He should write the acceptance test. And he can do his own work not related
      with the development (read a book is a nice work, not too hard).

      And better than the phone contact would be the NetMeeting contact. You can
      share the applications and show him everything that you want.

      Regards

      Javier



      > -----Mensaje original-----
      > De: Larmore, Edward [mailto:elarmore@...]
      > Enviado el: jueves 1 de febrero de 2001 19:45
      > Para: Extremeprogramming2 (E-mail)
      > CC: Eric Larsen (E-mail); virbots@...
      > Asunto: [XP] Pilot Project in XP
      >
      >
      > I'm new to XP, and decided to learn by doing. Two friends and I
      > started last
      > night on implementing a game, called Ader's Cage, in Java. One of the
      > friends is playing the customer, and the other friend and I are a
      > programming pair. It is my first XP project. Here are some of the
      > observations I made.
      >
      > The biggest lesson I learned last night was that writing tests
      > first helps a
      > lot. Once a given test is written, implementing the method being
      > tested is a
      > piece of cake. It really is a revolutionary idea.
      >
      > Another lesson I learned is that pair programming helps keep the code
      > simple, because you're constantly bouncing ideas back and forth with your
      > partner. But you have to actively resist the temptation to design for the
      > future.
      >
      > One of the problems I had was trying to keep the customer from getting
      > bored. I had him write down user stories. When he was done with
      > that, I had
      > him rank them by priority. When he was done with that, I didn't
      > know what to
      > do with him. He asked if phone contact would be sufficient in the
      > future. I
      > explained that XP encourages an on-site customer at all times.
      > Should I ask
      > him to bring a book to read next time, or is phone contact good enough?
      >
      > -Ed Larmore
      > R a t i o n a l
      > the e-development company
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
      >
      > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
      >
      >
    • Larmore, Edward
      I ve heard of acceptance tests, but I m not sure how those differ from the tests we (the programmers) are writing. What are they? Can you point me to a
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 1, 2001
        I've heard of acceptance tests, but I'm not sure how those differ from the
        tests we (the programmers) are writing. What are they? Can you point me to a
        reference that has examples?

        -Ed Larmore
        R a t i o n a l
        the e-development company


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Javier Campoamor [mailto:campoamor@...]
        Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:58 AM
        To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [XP] Pilot Project in XP


        He should write the acceptance test. And he can do his own work not related
        with the development (read a book is a nice work, not too hard).

        And better than the phone contact would be the NetMeeting contact. You can
        share the applications and show him everything that you want.

        Regards

        Javier



        > -----Mensaje original-----
        > De: Larmore, Edward [mailto:elarmore@...]
        > Enviado el: jueves 1 de febrero de 2001 19:45
        > Para: Extremeprogramming2 (E-mail)
        > CC: Eric Larsen (E-mail); virbots@...
        > Asunto: [XP] Pilot Project in XP
        >
        >
        > I'm new to XP, and decided to learn by doing. Two friends and I
        > started last
        > night on implementing a game, called Ader's Cage, in Java. One of the
        > friends is playing the customer, and the other friend and I are a
        > programming pair. It is my first XP project. Here are some of the
        > observations I made.
        >
        > The biggest lesson I learned last night was that writing tests
        > first helps a
        > lot. Once a given test is written, implementing the method being
        > tested is a
        > piece of cake. It really is a revolutionary idea.
        >
        > Another lesson I learned is that pair programming helps keep the code
        > simple, because you're constantly bouncing ideas back and forth with your
        > partner. But you have to actively resist the temptation to design for the
        > future.
        >
        > One of the problems I had was trying to keep the customer from getting
        > bored. I had him write down user stories. When he was done with
        > that, I had
        > him rank them by priority. When he was done with that, I didn't
        > know what to
        > do with him. He asked if phone contact would be sufficient in the
        > future. I
        > explained that XP encourages an on-site customer at all times.
        > Should I ask
        > him to bring a book to read next time, or is phone contact good enough?
        >
        > -Ed Larmore
        > R a t i o n a l
        > the e-development company
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
        >
        >


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      • Ron Jeffries
        ... Marvelous report, Ed, and congratulations for trying it. Sounds like a good experience. Real customers have real jobs they can do while they are with you.
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 1, 2001
          At 10:45 AM 2/1/2001 -0800, it seemed like Larmore, Edward wrote:
          >One of the problems I had was trying to keep the customer from getting
          >bored. I had him write down user stories. When he was done with that, I had
          >him rank them by priority. When he was done with that, I didn't know what to
          >do with him. He asked if phone contact would be sufficient in the future. I
          >explained that XP encourages an on-site customer at all times. Should I ask
          >him to bring a book to read next time, or is phone contact good enough?

          Marvelous report, Ed, and congratulations for trying it. Sounds like a good
          experience.

          Real customers have real jobs they can do while they are with you. And you
          probably knew the game very well. IRL the customer sits through the
          planning and estimating process, explains the stories, observes the tasking
          (and often observes that we didn't understand the story). Then s/he goes
          back to her day job, staying on call for questions. Phone can work. If you
          have real questions for the customer, observe how ready you are to just
          talk across the room vs how [un]willing to call on the phone. Should give
          you an appreciation for having them there.

          For an experiment, sure, reading a book or surfing is just fine.

          Great stuff! Congrats again!

          Ronald E Jeffries
          http://www.XProgramming.com
          http://www.objectmentor.com
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... XPI Chapters 5 and 6. In general acceptance tests would test the whole game in some way, unit tests tend to test single classes or small clusters of
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 1, 2001
            At 11:18 AM 2/1/2001 -0800, it seemed like Larmore, Edward wrote:
            >I've heard of acceptance tests, but I'm not sure how those differ from the
            >tests we (the programmers) are writing. What are they? Can you point me to a
            >reference that has examples?

            XPI Chapters 5 and 6.

            In general acceptance tests would test the whole game in some way, unit
            tests tend to test single classes or small clusters of classes. Acceptance
            tests would look like a game-playing script, and from the unit tests you
            might not even be able to tell it was a game.

            Regards,


            >-Ed Larmore
            >R a t i o n a l
            >the e-development company
            >
            >
            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: Javier Campoamor [mailto:campoamor@...]
            >Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:58 AM
            >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: RE: [XP] Pilot Project in XP
            >
            >
            >He should write the acceptance test. And he can do his own work not related
            >with the development (read a book is a nice work, not too hard).
            >
            >And better than the phone contact would be the NetMeeting contact. You can
            >share the applications and show him everything that you want.
            >
            >Regards
            >
            >Javier
            >
            >
            >
            > > -----Mensaje original-----
            > > De: Larmore, Edward [mailto:elarmore@...]
            > > Enviado el: jueves 1 de febrero de 2001 19:45
            > > Para: Extremeprogramming2 (E-mail)
            > > CC: Eric Larsen (E-mail); virbots@...
            > > Asunto: [XP] Pilot Project in XP
            > >
            > >
            > > I'm new to XP, and decided to learn by doing. Two friends and I
            > > started last
            > > night on implementing a game, called Ader's Cage, in Java. One of the
            > > friends is playing the customer, and the other friend and I are a
            > > programming pair. It is my first XP project. Here are some of the
            > > observations I made.
            > >
            > > The biggest lesson I learned last night was that writing tests
            > > first helps a
            > > lot. Once a given test is written, implementing the method being
            > > tested is a
            > > piece of cake. It really is a revolutionary idea.
            > >
            > > Another lesson I learned is that pair programming helps keep the code
            > > simple, because you're constantly bouncing ideas back and forth with your
            > > partner. But you have to actively resist the temptation to design for the
            > > future.
            > >
            > > One of the problems I had was trying to keep the customer from getting
            > > bored. I had him write down user stories. When he was done with
            > > that, I had
            > > him rank them by priority. When he was done with that, I didn't
            > > know what to
            > > do with him. He asked if phone contact would be sufficient in the
            > > future. I
            > > explained that XP encourages an on-site customer at all times.
            > > Should I ask
            > > him to bring a book to read next time, or is phone contact good enough?
            > >
            > > -Ed Larmore
            > > R a t i o n a l
            > > the e-development company
            > >
            > >
            > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            > >
            > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            > >
            > > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            >Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            >
            >To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            >Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com


            Ronald E Jeffries
            http://www.XProgramming.com
            http://www.objectmentor.com
          • Eric Herman
            ... had In addition to writing and ranking stories, the customer is also in charge of acceptance tests. In addition to writing the stories, you might ask him
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 1, 2001
              > >One of the problems I had was trying to keep the customer from getting
              > >bored. I had him write down user stories. When he was done with that, I
              had

              In addition to writing and ranking stories, the customer is also in charge
              of acceptance tests. In addition to writing the stories, you might ask him
              to attach a test definition.

              If you don't have automated acceptance testing yet, this could be as simple
              as a usage script written on the back of the user story card:
              "Open Browser, go to development main page, enter "TestUser" and
              "TestPass". At welcome screen? Yes: Pass!"

              For each story, there should be at least one test definition, right? Plus
              testing error conditions and some combinations of input and such. Just like
              the unit tests, these functional tests will accumulate quickly.

              And these all need to be run regularly ... hopefully as each new story that
              is signed off by the customer as completed, but at least at the end of each
              iteration. If you don't yet have automated acceptance tests, your customer
              needs to be doing a lot of by hand testing. The customer may even find
              themselves swamped after only a couple of iterations.

              Eric Herman
              Product Sight
            • Larmore, Edward
              ... Actually, I ve never played the game. I hadn t even heard of it until a week ago! :) -Ed Larmore R a t i o n a l the e-development company
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 1, 2001
                > And you probably knew the game very well.

                Actually, I've never played the game. I hadn't even heard of it until a week
                ago! :)

                -Ed Larmore
                R a t i o n a l
                the e-development company
              • Nicholas DiPiazza
                THANKS FOR ALL THE BOOKS EVERYONE!!! I m very thankful for your help. Oh and by the way.... Who are the authors of The c++ programming language, Design
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 1, 2001
                  THANKS FOR ALL THE BOOKS EVERYONE!!! I'm very thankful for your help.
                  Oh and by the way....
                  Who are the authors of The c++ programming language, Design Patterns, and
                  C++ FAQ?

                  Nicholas
                • Larmore, Edward
                  Nicholas- It wasn t clear from your original message whether you are putting C++ to practice at your job or at home. If you are, don t read the rest of this
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 1, 2001
                    Nicholas-

                    It wasn't clear from your original message whether you are putting C++ to
                    practice at your job or at home. If you are, don't read the rest of this
                    message.

                    Books are great. I have lots of them. But all the reading in the world isn't
                    going to teach you like putting it to practice. I recommend that you pick
                    something to work on for fun, like a game. And then implement it in C++ (or
                    whatever language you settle on). Buy a cheap compiler from CompUSA or
                    something, install it, and start programming! That is what I did (and still
                    doing), and it got me my current job as a Java programmer.

                    -Ed

                    > Sorry to everyone on this list for being a question only kind of member
                    but
                    > I lack the experience I see that most of you have. I have yet another
                    > question for any of the gracious folks on the list to answer for me if
                    they
                    > like.

                    > well im definatly going to program primarily in c++... I love OOP... but I
                    > am afraid that I'm not getting the correct reading materials for the job.
                    I
                    > have read through SAMS Teach yourself c++ in 24 hrs (more like 24 days)
                    and
                    > both of Meyer's effective c++ books (which i really enjoyed and learned a
                    > lot from). These are the three basic books I have learned the majority of
                    > what I know about c++ from but I am now confronted with a dead end. I have
                    > of course purchased Bjarne's The evolution of C++ and I'm now confused
                    where
                    > I should go next. Does anyone have any good books out there to recommend
                    to
                    > a future OOP programmer.. Does anyone suggest I should dip my nose into
                    any
                    > other languages for my benefit's sake?

                    > Once again I thank everyone for answering my questions so open
                    heartedly...
                    > I'm sorry I'm not able to answer any of your own questions but I hope to
                    in
                    > the future!

                    > nicholas


                    -Ed Larmore
                    R a t i o n a l
                    the e-development company


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Nicholas DiPiazza [mailto:firelord@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 4:39 PM
                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [XP] Pilot Project in XP


                    THANKS FOR ALL THE BOOKS EVERYONE!!! I'm very thankful for your help.
                    Oh and by the way....
                    Who are the authors of The c++ programming language, Design Patterns, and
                    C++ FAQ?

                    Nicholas


                    To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                    Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                  • Javier Campoamor
                    The c++ programming language (Stroupstrup) Design Patterns (Gamma) C++ FAQ (Marshall P. Cline, Greg A. Lomow, Mike Girou)
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 2, 2001
                      The c++ programming language (Stroupstrup)
                      Design Patterns (Gamma)
                      C++ FAQ (Marshall P. Cline, Greg A. Lomow, Mike Girou)

                      > -----Mensaje original-----
                      > De: Nicholas DiPiazza [mailto:firelord@...]
                      > Enviado el: viernes 2 de febrero de 2001 1:39
                      > Para: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      > Asunto: RE: [XP] Pilot Project in XP
                      >
                      >
                      > THANKS FOR ALL THE BOOKS EVERYONE!!! I'm very thankful for your help.
                      > Oh and by the way....
                      > Who are the authors of The c++ programming language, Design Patterns, and
                      > C++ FAQ?
                      >
                      > Nicholas
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                      >
                      >
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