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Re: [XP] who do your pair with?

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  • Dossy
    ... [ ... ] ... Hi, Chris! Thanks for mentioning me! I guess the short answer is: until recently, I was a closet XP er. For many years, I ve done most of the
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
      On 2000.12.01, C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> wrote:
      > There are quite a few people who regularly/frequently post in this
      > group who seem to be the only ones who post from their company/domain.
      [ ... ]
      > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
      > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to
      > hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any
      > of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might
      > make some reference to the difference between introverts and
      > extroverts.)

      Hi, Chris! Thanks for mentioning me!

      I guess the short answer is: until recently, I was a closet XP'er.

      For many years, I've done most of the practices of XP. I did them
      because they came naturally. They produced the best results. They
      made the customer happy. I didn't have a name for my methodology,
      which made some people edgy but results speak for themselves.

      I never called it "pair programming" but I've always found working
      closely with someone else (whether it be the customer to determine
      requirements, or another developer to accomplish goals) worked
      better than doing things in a vacuum only to later find out of the
      edges of the two puzzles fit together.

      On the "smart people continuum" I'm somewhere near the bottom - I read
      very little, I barely study, and I can't keep too many ideas organized
      in my head at once. My abilities forced me to adopt a method of
      working that let me accomplish the most with the little resources
      I had: I make lots of small changes, and make sure that after each
      one, nothing broke. If I got sloppy and made multiple changes, I
      usually found myself having to back them all out and then applying
      one at a time until I found what broke, anyhow.

      Because I integrated often, in XP terms, I considered an iteration
      to be a day long. At the beginning of my day, I'd look at the
      outstanding tasks as prioritized by my customer and would figure
      out how many of them I could get done by the end of the day. I'd
      do them, and integrate them - the customer always saw progress,
      and was always happy with this. They felt like every day they
      were paying for has been well spent. (XP talks about iterations
      a bit longer, which probably works better for projects with more
      people - but I wonder if anyone else here uses or have tried
      iterations of one or two days long.)


      Then, I came across the XP white book and said "wow, validation
      for what I've been doing!" It's given me the courage to, of
      sorts, come "out of the closet" about my XP. I actually refer
      to things as being XP-like now, and have convinced some folks
      to read some of the XP books. I've got one of my "business
      customers" reading the XP green book, and he has since gotten
      copies of it for all of his people. By the middle of 2001,
      I want to make the white and pink books "required reading" for
      all of our developers here.


      Now, to answer your question about why only I post from my
      company? Panoptic Computer Network is a company of one - me.
      It's the company I started to do all my freelance work under,
      and to keep "my stuff" seperate from "my employer's stuff".

      Now, I'm currently employed by one of the world's largest
      educational publishers (I don't want to say which... feel
      free to send guesses to me in private email if you like)
      which is where I've really been applying XP. Until working
      here, I've only done the "informal XP" that I describe
      earlier in the email.

      Why am I the only one posting from *that* company? Because
      everyone else spends their time surfing the web rather
      than subscribing to mailing lists? Maybe they don't
      know about this mailing list, or mailing lists in general.
      Maybe they're all busy forwarding joke emails to their
      friends and family. I have no idea.


      > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings with
      > your pairs?

      Oh no, never! I wouldn't want them to know that I tell stories
      about them to bunch of strangers! They might not want to pair
      anymore if they knew I was off talking about what we'd done,
      haha.

      I do bring back what I learn on this list to the folks I work
      with, so in the end my organization does benefit, but I never
      mention what comes from my posts vs. others ...

      Maybe I should. But then, maybe they'd realize we were doing
      XP, and would start to resist. I think it's better the way
      things are ... ;-) ;-)

      - Dossy

      --
      Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
      Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
    • John Brewer
      ... Jera Design is currently a 1-person shop, so you won t see my pair partners posting from the same domain. Right now I m working with another 1-person
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
        --- In extremeprogramming@egroups.com, "C. J. M. Booth" <cjmb@a...>
        wrote:
        > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
        > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem
        > to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is.
        > Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the
        > explanation might make some reference to the difference between
        > introverts and extroverts.)

        Jera Design is currently a 1-person shop, so you won't see my
        pair partners posting from the same domain. Right now I'm working
        with another 1-person shop, pairing on some work, and doing some work
        alone. We've been doing both physical pairing (which involves a 90
        minute commute for one of us) and remote pairing via NetMeeting.

        I've also paired with a couple of people at one of my previous
        clients, although that sort of petered out after a while. My first
        first-hand experience with pairing by that name was at XP Immersion 2
        last Feb/March. Before that, I had occasionally paired, but
        always under the guise of "fixing a really hard bug".

        John Brewer
        Jera Design
      • kjray
        C. J. M. Booth on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote: [...] ... [...] One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and complains that he
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
          C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote:
          [...]
          >As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
          >thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to hear
          >from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you
          >care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
          >reference to the difference between introverts and extroverts.)
          [...]

          One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and
          complains that he gets too many messages. He would NOT be able to handle
          this XP mailing list, because his reading speed is not up for it. Many
          of my co-workers would also not be up for 50+ mail messages a day,
          whether in digest form or not, because they are not native English
          reader/speakers, or just not fast readers. This is probably more
          important than introvert/extrovert. Some would not read the mailing list
          at home, as I do, because they have a life / children / hobbies / etc.
        • David Corbin
          ... You raise valid point about people that can t read (English) very fast. But I don t know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources of knowledge
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
            kjray wrote:
            >
            > C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote:
            > [...]
            > >As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
            > >thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to hear
            > >from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you
            > >care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
            > >reference to the difference between introverts and extroverts.)
            > [...]
            >
            > One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and
            > complains that he gets too many messages. He would NOT be able to handle
            > this XP mailing list, because his reading speed is not up for it. Many
            > of my co-workers would also not be up for 50+ mail messages a day,
            > whether in digest form or not, because they are not native English
            > reader/speakers, or just not fast readers. This is probably more
            > important than introvert/extrovert. Some would not read the mailing list
            > at home, as I do, because they have a life / children / hobbies / etc.
            >

            You raise valid point about people that can't read (English) very fast.
            But I don't know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources
            of knowledge such as this list provide. OTOH, Junit has had about 70
            messages in 3 weeks. If you can't keep up with that, I think you're in
            the wrong business. And I too have a life/hobbies/wife/etc. Sorry for
            the rant. This is a pet-peeve of mine.

            --
            David Corbin
            Mach Turtle Technologies, Inc.
            http://www.machturtle.com
            dcorbin@...
          • kjray
            David Corbin on 12/2/00 10:59 AM wrote: [...] ... The one who complained about the JUnit mailing list is one of the best programmers
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
              David Corbin <dcorbin@...> on 12/2/00 10:59 AM wrote:

              [...]
              >You raise valid point about people that can't read (English) very fast.
              >But I don't know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources
              >of knowledge such as this list provide. OTOH, Junit has had about 70
              >messages in 3 weeks. If you can't keep up with that, I think you're in
              >the wrong business. And I too have a life/hobbies/wife/etc. Sorry for
              >the rant. This is a pet-peeve of mine.

              The one who complained about the JUnit mailing list is one of the best
              programmers I've worked with. However, when he read the book "Extreme
              Programming Explained", he used a English-Korean dictionary to help him,
              and sometimes asked me to explain idioms.

              Unlike almost all of the not-very-good programmers I've worked with, he
              _will_ read books to expand his education.

              And he reads the bits I select from the XP mailing list. I try to pick
              the best and most-relevant messages from the XP mailing list, which
              average about 2 or 3 messages a week, and forward those to my co-workers.
            • Robert Watkins
              ... Well, in my case, we don t do XP. A small group of us are trying, and we re getting quite a few of the XP values and practices adopted, but
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
                C.J.M. Booth writes:
                > Robert Watkins
                >
                > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and
                > make thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never
                > seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that
                > is. Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that
                > the explanation might make some reference to the difference
                > between introverts and extroverts.)

                Well, in my case, we don't do XP. A small group of us are trying, and we're
                getting quite a few of the XP values and practices adopted, but
                pair-programming in particular is one our management doesn't want to
                swallow. We get around it by pairing informally, especially senior-junior
                people under the label of mentoring.

                There were a couple of other guys here that posted intermittently, but
                they've moved on. Another couple read the list. We've got a division of
                labour, as well... monitoring the XP groups is one of my "tasks".

                > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings
                > with your pairs?

                No, not usually. I frequently highlight messages on the list to the group I
                work with, though.

                Robert.

                --
                /\\\ Robert Watkins | Email: robert.watkins@...
                ( ))) Software Engineer - Tech Dev | Ph: +61 7 3303 3432
                \/// MINCOM Ltd | Fax: +61 7 3303 3232
                Mincom

                This transmission is for the intended addressee only and is confidential
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              • Dossy
                ... Wow, I wish my company would hire someone to sift through the XP mailing list and send me only a few relevant emails a day! - Dossy Excuse me while I
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
                  On 2000.12.02, kjray <kjray@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > And he reads the bits I select from the XP mailing list. I try to pick
                  > the best and most-relevant messages from the XP mailing list, which
                  > average about 2 or 3 messages a week, and forward those to my co-workers.
                  >

                  Wow, I wish my company would hire someone to sift through the XP
                  mailing list and send me only a few relevant emails a day!


                  - Dossy
                  Excuse me while I remove my tongue from my cheek.

                  --
                  Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
                  Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
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