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Re: [XP] who do your pair with?

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  • David Corbin
    ... That s me. t ... Thanks much. Yet we never seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you care to explain, please.
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
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      "C. J. M. Booth" wrote:
      >
      > Hi folks,
      >
      > There has been quite a lot of recent discussion about pairing, especially over long distances. That led me to notice the following. There are quite a few people who regularly/frequently post in this group who seem to be the only ones who post from their company/domain. For example (not an exhaustive list; just from memory; in no particular order):
      >
      > David Corbin

      That's me.
      t
      >
      > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make thoughtful comments based on their experience.

      Thanks much.

      Yet we never seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why
      that is. Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the
      explanation might make some reference to the difference between
      introverts and extroverts.)
      >

      I don't have a pair. There are three technical types in our business,
      and right now only one of them spends the bulk of the day doing
      programming. Two of us are busy trying to drum up business. I WANT to
      try XP, and I WANT to try PP, but we've got to find the right customer
      first.


      > Thanks in anticipation of some interesting answers,
      >
      > Chris.
      >
      > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings with your pairs?
      >
      > Christopher Booth, DERA Malvern, St Andrews Rd, Malvern, WR14 3PS. UK
      > Tel:+44 (0)1684 896400 mailto:cjmb@... Fax:+44 (0)1684 894389
      >
      > Don't play mind games with a telepath.
      >
      > The views expressed above are entirely mine and do not represent the
      > views, policy or understanding of any other person or official body.
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
      >
      > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com

      --
      David Corbin
      Mach Turtle Technologies, Inc.
      http://www.machturtle.com
      dcorbin@...
    • Dossy
      ... [ ... ] ... Hi, Chris! Thanks for mentioning me! I guess the short answer is: until recently, I was a closet XP er. For many years, I ve done most of the
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
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        On 2000.12.01, C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> wrote:
        > There are quite a few people who regularly/frequently post in this
        > group who seem to be the only ones who post from their company/domain.
        [ ... ]
        > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
        > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to
        > hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any
        > of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might
        > make some reference to the difference between introverts and
        > extroverts.)

        Hi, Chris! Thanks for mentioning me!

        I guess the short answer is: until recently, I was a closet XP'er.

        For many years, I've done most of the practices of XP. I did them
        because they came naturally. They produced the best results. They
        made the customer happy. I didn't have a name for my methodology,
        which made some people edgy but results speak for themselves.

        I never called it "pair programming" but I've always found working
        closely with someone else (whether it be the customer to determine
        requirements, or another developer to accomplish goals) worked
        better than doing things in a vacuum only to later find out of the
        edges of the two puzzles fit together.

        On the "smart people continuum" I'm somewhere near the bottom - I read
        very little, I barely study, and I can't keep too many ideas organized
        in my head at once. My abilities forced me to adopt a method of
        working that let me accomplish the most with the little resources
        I had: I make lots of small changes, and make sure that after each
        one, nothing broke. If I got sloppy and made multiple changes, I
        usually found myself having to back them all out and then applying
        one at a time until I found what broke, anyhow.

        Because I integrated often, in XP terms, I considered an iteration
        to be a day long. At the beginning of my day, I'd look at the
        outstanding tasks as prioritized by my customer and would figure
        out how many of them I could get done by the end of the day. I'd
        do them, and integrate them - the customer always saw progress,
        and was always happy with this. They felt like every day they
        were paying for has been well spent. (XP talks about iterations
        a bit longer, which probably works better for projects with more
        people - but I wonder if anyone else here uses or have tried
        iterations of one or two days long.)


        Then, I came across the XP white book and said "wow, validation
        for what I've been doing!" It's given me the courage to, of
        sorts, come "out of the closet" about my XP. I actually refer
        to things as being XP-like now, and have convinced some folks
        to read some of the XP books. I've got one of my "business
        customers" reading the XP green book, and he has since gotten
        copies of it for all of his people. By the middle of 2001,
        I want to make the white and pink books "required reading" for
        all of our developers here.


        Now, to answer your question about why only I post from my
        company? Panoptic Computer Network is a company of one - me.
        It's the company I started to do all my freelance work under,
        and to keep "my stuff" seperate from "my employer's stuff".

        Now, I'm currently employed by one of the world's largest
        educational publishers (I don't want to say which... feel
        free to send guesses to me in private email if you like)
        which is where I've really been applying XP. Until working
        here, I've only done the "informal XP" that I describe
        earlier in the email.

        Why am I the only one posting from *that* company? Because
        everyone else spends their time surfing the web rather
        than subscribing to mailing lists? Maybe they don't
        know about this mailing list, or mailing lists in general.
        Maybe they're all busy forwarding joke emails to their
        friends and family. I have no idea.


        > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings with
        > your pairs?

        Oh no, never! I wouldn't want them to know that I tell stories
        about them to bunch of strangers! They might not want to pair
        anymore if they knew I was off talking about what we'd done,
        haha.

        I do bring back what I learn on this list to the folks I work
        with, so in the end my organization does benefit, but I never
        mention what comes from my posts vs. others ...

        Maybe I should. But then, maybe they'd realize we were doing
        XP, and would start to resist. I think it's better the way
        things are ... ;-) ;-)

        - Dossy

        --
        Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
        Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
      • John Brewer
        ... Jera Design is currently a 1-person shop, so you won t see my pair partners posting from the same domain. Right now I m working with another 1-person
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
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          --- In extremeprogramming@egroups.com, "C. J. M. Booth" <cjmb@a...>
          wrote:
          > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
          > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem
          > to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is.
          > Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the
          > explanation might make some reference to the difference between
          > introverts and extroverts.)

          Jera Design is currently a 1-person shop, so you won't see my
          pair partners posting from the same domain. Right now I'm working
          with another 1-person shop, pairing on some work, and doing some work
          alone. We've been doing both physical pairing (which involves a 90
          minute commute for one of us) and remote pairing via NetMeeting.

          I've also paired with a couple of people at one of my previous
          clients, although that sort of petered out after a while. My first
          first-hand experience with pairing by that name was at XP Immersion 2
          last Feb/March. Before that, I had occasionally paired, but
          always under the guise of "fixing a really hard bug".

          John Brewer
          Jera Design
        • kjray
          C. J. M. Booth on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote: [...] ... [...] One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and complains that he
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
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            C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote:
            [...]
            >As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
            >thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to hear
            >from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you
            >care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
            >reference to the difference between introverts and extroverts.)
            [...]

            One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and
            complains that he gets too many messages. He would NOT be able to handle
            this XP mailing list, because his reading speed is not up for it. Many
            of my co-workers would also not be up for 50+ mail messages a day,
            whether in digest form or not, because they are not native English
            reader/speakers, or just not fast readers. This is probably more
            important than introvert/extrovert. Some would not read the mailing list
            at home, as I do, because they have a life / children / hobbies / etc.
          • David Corbin
            ... You raise valid point about people that can t read (English) very fast. But I don t know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources of knowledge
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
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              kjray wrote:
              >
              > C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote:
              > [...]
              > >As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
              > >thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to hear
              > >from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you
              > >care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
              > >reference to the difference between introverts and extroverts.)
              > [...]
              >
              > One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and
              > complains that he gets too many messages. He would NOT be able to handle
              > this XP mailing list, because his reading speed is not up for it. Many
              > of my co-workers would also not be up for 50+ mail messages a day,
              > whether in digest form or not, because they are not native English
              > reader/speakers, or just not fast readers. This is probably more
              > important than introvert/extrovert. Some would not read the mailing list
              > at home, as I do, because they have a life / children / hobbies / etc.
              >

              You raise valid point about people that can't read (English) very fast.
              But I don't know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources
              of knowledge such as this list provide. OTOH, Junit has had about 70
              messages in 3 weeks. If you can't keep up with that, I think you're in
              the wrong business. And I too have a life/hobbies/wife/etc. Sorry for
              the rant. This is a pet-peeve of mine.

              --
              David Corbin
              Mach Turtle Technologies, Inc.
              http://www.machturtle.com
              dcorbin@...
            • kjray
              David Corbin on 12/2/00 10:59 AM wrote: [...] ... The one who complained about the JUnit mailing list is one of the best programmers
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
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                David Corbin <dcorbin@...> on 12/2/00 10:59 AM wrote:

                [...]
                >You raise valid point about people that can't read (English) very fast.
                >But I don't know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources
                >of knowledge such as this list provide. OTOH, Junit has had about 70
                >messages in 3 weeks. If you can't keep up with that, I think you're in
                >the wrong business. And I too have a life/hobbies/wife/etc. Sorry for
                >the rant. This is a pet-peeve of mine.

                The one who complained about the JUnit mailing list is one of the best
                programmers I've worked with. However, when he read the book "Extreme
                Programming Explained", he used a English-Korean dictionary to help him,
                and sometimes asked me to explain idioms.

                Unlike almost all of the not-very-good programmers I've worked with, he
                _will_ read books to expand his education.

                And he reads the bits I select from the XP mailing list. I try to pick
                the best and most-relevant messages from the XP mailing list, which
                average about 2 or 3 messages a week, and forward those to my co-workers.
              • Robert Watkins
                ... Well, in my case, we don t do XP. A small group of us are trying, and we re getting quite a few of the XP values and practices adopted, but
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
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                  C.J.M. Booth writes:
                  > Robert Watkins
                  >
                  > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and
                  > make thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never
                  > seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that
                  > is. Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that
                  > the explanation might make some reference to the difference
                  > between introverts and extroverts.)

                  Well, in my case, we don't do XP. A small group of us are trying, and we're
                  getting quite a few of the XP values and practices adopted, but
                  pair-programming in particular is one our management doesn't want to
                  swallow. We get around it by pairing informally, especially senior-junior
                  people under the label of mentoring.

                  There were a couple of other guys here that posted intermittently, but
                  they've moved on. Another couple read the list. We've got a division of
                  labour, as well... monitoring the XP groups is one of my "tasks".

                  > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings
                  > with your pairs?

                  No, not usually. I frequently highlight messages on the list to the group I
                  work with, though.

                  Robert.

                  --
                  /\\\ Robert Watkins | Email: robert.watkins@...
                  ( ))) Software Engineer - Tech Dev | Ph: +61 7 3303 3432
                  \/// MINCOM Ltd | Fax: +61 7 3303 3232
                  Mincom

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                • Dossy
                  ... Wow, I wish my company would hire someone to sift through the XP mailing list and send me only a few relevant emails a day! - Dossy Excuse me while I
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
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                    On 2000.12.02, kjray <kjray@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > And he reads the bits I select from the XP mailing list. I try to pick
                    > the best and most-relevant messages from the XP mailing list, which
                    > average about 2 or 3 messages a week, and forward those to my co-workers.
                    >

                    Wow, I wish my company would hire someone to sift through the XP
                    mailing list and send me only a few relevant emails a day!


                    - Dossy
                    Excuse me while I remove my tongue from my cheek.

                    --
                    Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
                    Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
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