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Re: [XP] who do your pair with?

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  • Kevin Smith
    ... I m only doing XP-for-one from home. No luck converting work to XP yet. There is some hope in that area, however. I ve done some pairing in the past
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
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      > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice,
      > and make thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet
      > we never seem to hear from those that they pair with. I
      > wonder why that is. Would any of you care to explain,
      > please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
      > reference to the difference between introverts and
      > extroverts.)

      I'm only doing XP-for-one from home. No luck converting work
      to XP yet. There is some hope in that area, however.

      I've done some pairing in the past (before I knew about XP).
      But it's the practice that I've had the least experience
      with, so I tend to listen more than talk (type) when the
      topic of PP comes up.

      Kevin
    • David Corbin
      ... That s me. t ... Thanks much. Yet we never seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you care to explain, please.
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
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        "C. J. M. Booth" wrote:
        >
        > Hi folks,
        >
        > There has been quite a lot of recent discussion about pairing, especially over long distances. That led me to notice the following. There are quite a few people who regularly/frequently post in this group who seem to be the only ones who post from their company/domain. For example (not an exhaustive list; just from memory; in no particular order):
        >
        > David Corbin

        That's me.
        t
        >
        > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make thoughtful comments based on their experience.

        Thanks much.

        Yet we never seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why
        that is. Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the
        explanation might make some reference to the difference between
        introverts and extroverts.)
        >

        I don't have a pair. There are three technical types in our business,
        and right now only one of them spends the bulk of the day doing
        programming. Two of us are busy trying to drum up business. I WANT to
        try XP, and I WANT to try PP, but we've got to find the right customer
        first.


        > Thanks in anticipation of some interesting answers,
        >
        > Chris.
        >
        > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings with your pairs?
        >
        > Christopher Booth, DERA Malvern, St Andrews Rd, Malvern, WR14 3PS. UK
        > Tel:+44 (0)1684 896400 mailto:cjmb@... Fax:+44 (0)1684 894389
        >
        > Don't play mind games with a telepath.
        >
        > The views expressed above are entirely mine and do not represent the
        > views, policy or understanding of any other person or official body.
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com

        --
        David Corbin
        Mach Turtle Technologies, Inc.
        http://www.machturtle.com
        dcorbin@...
      • Dossy
        ... [ ... ] ... Hi, Chris! Thanks for mentioning me! I guess the short answer is: until recently, I was a closet XP er. For many years, I ve done most of the
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
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          On 2000.12.01, C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> wrote:
          > There are quite a few people who regularly/frequently post in this
          > group who seem to be the only ones who post from their company/domain.
          [ ... ]
          > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
          > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to
          > hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any
          > of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might
          > make some reference to the difference between introverts and
          > extroverts.)

          Hi, Chris! Thanks for mentioning me!

          I guess the short answer is: until recently, I was a closet XP'er.

          For many years, I've done most of the practices of XP. I did them
          because they came naturally. They produced the best results. They
          made the customer happy. I didn't have a name for my methodology,
          which made some people edgy but results speak for themselves.

          I never called it "pair programming" but I've always found working
          closely with someone else (whether it be the customer to determine
          requirements, or another developer to accomplish goals) worked
          better than doing things in a vacuum only to later find out of the
          edges of the two puzzles fit together.

          On the "smart people continuum" I'm somewhere near the bottom - I read
          very little, I barely study, and I can't keep too many ideas organized
          in my head at once. My abilities forced me to adopt a method of
          working that let me accomplish the most with the little resources
          I had: I make lots of small changes, and make sure that after each
          one, nothing broke. If I got sloppy and made multiple changes, I
          usually found myself having to back them all out and then applying
          one at a time until I found what broke, anyhow.

          Because I integrated often, in XP terms, I considered an iteration
          to be a day long. At the beginning of my day, I'd look at the
          outstanding tasks as prioritized by my customer and would figure
          out how many of them I could get done by the end of the day. I'd
          do them, and integrate them - the customer always saw progress,
          and was always happy with this. They felt like every day they
          were paying for has been well spent. (XP talks about iterations
          a bit longer, which probably works better for projects with more
          people - but I wonder if anyone else here uses or have tried
          iterations of one or two days long.)


          Then, I came across the XP white book and said "wow, validation
          for what I've been doing!" It's given me the courage to, of
          sorts, come "out of the closet" about my XP. I actually refer
          to things as being XP-like now, and have convinced some folks
          to read some of the XP books. I've got one of my "business
          customers" reading the XP green book, and he has since gotten
          copies of it for all of his people. By the middle of 2001,
          I want to make the white and pink books "required reading" for
          all of our developers here.


          Now, to answer your question about why only I post from my
          company? Panoptic Computer Network is a company of one - me.
          It's the company I started to do all my freelance work under,
          and to keep "my stuff" seperate from "my employer's stuff".

          Now, I'm currently employed by one of the world's largest
          educational publishers (I don't want to say which... feel
          free to send guesses to me in private email if you like)
          which is where I've really been applying XP. Until working
          here, I've only done the "informal XP" that I describe
          earlier in the email.

          Why am I the only one posting from *that* company? Because
          everyone else spends their time surfing the web rather
          than subscribing to mailing lists? Maybe they don't
          know about this mailing list, or mailing lists in general.
          Maybe they're all busy forwarding joke emails to their
          friends and family. I have no idea.


          > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings with
          > your pairs?

          Oh no, never! I wouldn't want them to know that I tell stories
          about them to bunch of strangers! They might not want to pair
          anymore if they knew I was off talking about what we'd done,
          haha.

          I do bring back what I learn on this list to the folks I work
          with, so in the end my organization does benefit, but I never
          mention what comes from my posts vs. others ...

          Maybe I should. But then, maybe they'd realize we were doing
          XP, and would start to resist. I think it's better the way
          things are ... ;-) ;-)

          - Dossy

          --
          Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
          Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
        • John Brewer
          ... Jera Design is currently a 1-person shop, so you won t see my pair partners posting from the same domain. Right now I m working with another 1-person
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
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            --- In extremeprogramming@egroups.com, "C. J. M. Booth" <cjmb@a...>
            wrote:
            > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
            > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem
            > to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is.
            > Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the
            > explanation might make some reference to the difference between
            > introverts and extroverts.)

            Jera Design is currently a 1-person shop, so you won't see my
            pair partners posting from the same domain. Right now I'm working
            with another 1-person shop, pairing on some work, and doing some work
            alone. We've been doing both physical pairing (which involves a 90
            minute commute for one of us) and remote pairing via NetMeeting.

            I've also paired with a couple of people at one of my previous
            clients, although that sort of petered out after a while. My first
            first-hand experience with pairing by that name was at XP Immersion 2
            last Feb/March. Before that, I had occasionally paired, but
            always under the guise of "fixing a really hard bug".

            John Brewer
            Jera Design
          • kjray
            C. J. M. Booth on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote: [...] ... [...] One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and complains that he
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
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              C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote:
              [...]
              >As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
              >thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to hear
              >from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you
              >care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
              >reference to the difference between introverts and extroverts.)
              [...]

              One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and
              complains that he gets too many messages. He would NOT be able to handle
              this XP mailing list, because his reading speed is not up for it. Many
              of my co-workers would also not be up for 50+ mail messages a day,
              whether in digest form or not, because they are not native English
              reader/speakers, or just not fast readers. This is probably more
              important than introvert/extrovert. Some would not read the mailing list
              at home, as I do, because they have a life / children / hobbies / etc.
            • David Corbin
              ... You raise valid point about people that can t read (English) very fast. But I don t know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources of knowledge
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
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                kjray wrote:
                >
                > C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote:
                > [...]
                > >As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
                > >thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to hear
                > >from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you
                > >care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
                > >reference to the difference between introverts and extroverts.)
                > [...]
                >
                > One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and
                > complains that he gets too many messages. He would NOT be able to handle
                > this XP mailing list, because his reading speed is not up for it. Many
                > of my co-workers would also not be up for 50+ mail messages a day,
                > whether in digest form or not, because they are not native English
                > reader/speakers, or just not fast readers. This is probably more
                > important than introvert/extrovert. Some would not read the mailing list
                > at home, as I do, because they have a life / children / hobbies / etc.
                >

                You raise valid point about people that can't read (English) very fast.
                But I don't know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources
                of knowledge such as this list provide. OTOH, Junit has had about 70
                messages in 3 weeks. If you can't keep up with that, I think you're in
                the wrong business. And I too have a life/hobbies/wife/etc. Sorry for
                the rant. This is a pet-peeve of mine.

                --
                David Corbin
                Mach Turtle Technologies, Inc.
                http://www.machturtle.com
                dcorbin@...
              • kjray
                David Corbin on 12/2/00 10:59 AM wrote: [...] ... The one who complained about the JUnit mailing list is one of the best programmers
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
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                  David Corbin <dcorbin@...> on 12/2/00 10:59 AM wrote:

                  [...]
                  >You raise valid point about people that can't read (English) very fast.
                  >But I don't know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources
                  >of knowledge such as this list provide. OTOH, Junit has had about 70
                  >messages in 3 weeks. If you can't keep up with that, I think you're in
                  >the wrong business. And I too have a life/hobbies/wife/etc. Sorry for
                  >the rant. This is a pet-peeve of mine.

                  The one who complained about the JUnit mailing list is one of the best
                  programmers I've worked with. However, when he read the book "Extreme
                  Programming Explained", he used a English-Korean dictionary to help him,
                  and sometimes asked me to explain idioms.

                  Unlike almost all of the not-very-good programmers I've worked with, he
                  _will_ read books to expand his education.

                  And he reads the bits I select from the XP mailing list. I try to pick
                  the best and most-relevant messages from the XP mailing list, which
                  average about 2 or 3 messages a week, and forward those to my co-workers.
                • Robert Watkins
                  ... Well, in my case, we don t do XP. A small group of us are trying, and we re getting quite a few of the XP values and practices adopted, but
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
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                    C.J.M. Booth writes:
                    > Robert Watkins
                    >
                    > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and
                    > make thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never
                    > seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that
                    > is. Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that
                    > the explanation might make some reference to the difference
                    > between introverts and extroverts.)

                    Well, in my case, we don't do XP. A small group of us are trying, and we're
                    getting quite a few of the XP values and practices adopted, but
                    pair-programming in particular is one our management doesn't want to
                    swallow. We get around it by pairing informally, especially senior-junior
                    people under the label of mentoring.

                    There were a couple of other guys here that posted intermittently, but
                    they've moved on. Another couple read the list. We've got a division of
                    labour, as well... monitoring the XP groups is one of my "tasks".

                    > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings
                    > with your pairs?

                    No, not usually. I frequently highlight messages on the list to the group I
                    work with, though.

                    Robert.

                    --
                    /\\\ Robert Watkins | Email: robert.watkins@...
                    ( ))) Software Engineer - Tech Dev | Ph: +61 7 3303 3432
                    \/// MINCOM Ltd | Fax: +61 7 3303 3232
                    Mincom

                    This transmission is for the intended addressee only and is confidential
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                  • Dossy
                    ... Wow, I wish my company would hire someone to sift through the XP mailing list and send me only a few relevant emails a day! - Dossy Excuse me while I
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
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                      On 2000.12.02, kjray <kjray@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > And he reads the bits I select from the XP mailing list. I try to pick
                      > the best and most-relevant messages from the XP mailing list, which
                      > average about 2 or 3 messages a week, and forward those to my co-workers.
                      >

                      Wow, I wish my company would hire someone to sift through the XP
                      mailing list and send me only a few relevant emails a day!


                      - Dossy
                      Excuse me while I remove my tongue from my cheek.

                      --
                      Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
                      Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
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