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RE: [XP] who do your pair with?

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  • Pardee, Tom
    ... Way to go Laurent - if he doesn t work out, send me some details on your company s re-lo package....In the meantime, good luck. My explanation is that I
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
      > Chris asks :
      >
      > > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
      > > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem
      > > to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is.
      >
      > Laurent responds:
      > My explanation is fairly simple - I'm still the only
      > programmer in the
      > team, doing "XP for one". Incidentally, I'm meeting a potential PP
      > partner tonight - he has interviewed with management already, who
      > have a favorable opinion, but they thoughtfully asked me to talk and
      > pair with him to confirm that decision. What makes me even
      > happier is that what they gave him by way of a job description was
      > "we're looking for a PP partner for Laurent". At the very least my
      > fears about transitioning from "XP for one" to "as nearly XP as we
      > can manage" have been listened to.
      >
      Way to go Laurent - if he doesn't work out, send me some details on your
      company's re-lo package....In the meantime, good luck.

      My explanation is that I also don't have a partner. I am primarily an
      eBusiness strategist, technology & methodology evangelist, Architect,
      Proposal Writer, Project Manager - but only a little programmer. I adapted
      some XP practices into a methodology and led a small project team in a demo
      project; it was, however, put on the back shelf when the programmers were
      needed for client work. I have several initiatives for moving projects
      toward XP practices, but am mostly working 'under ground' right now.

      The programmers on the demo project liked PP and other aspects of the
      methodology. They were intermediate programmers, but new to the MS
      technology we were using on that project, so there was a lot of technology
      mentoring and learning going on simultaneously - good in its own right, but
      it obscured some of the benefits/shortcomings of the methodology.

      I will be sharing any useful observations from continuing/future
      projects...one of which is a COBOL maintenance project. For this I am
      espousing a test framework for testFirst, and optimizing the build mechanism
      for frequent integration testing. The PM for this effort has also shown
      interest in PP. If anyone has ideas for this, I'm interested.

      Thanks,
      Tom Pardee
      Principal Consultant
      Paragon Computer Professionals, Inc.
      Phone - (908) 653-3089 FAX - (908) 272-2009

      ThinkAhead*
      Think PARAGON
    • Kevin Smith
      ... I m only doing XP-for-one from home. No luck converting work to XP yet. There is some hope in that area, however. I ve done some pairing in the past
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
        > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice,
        > and make thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet
        > we never seem to hear from those that they pair with. I
        > wonder why that is. Would any of you care to explain,
        > please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
        > reference to the difference between introverts and
        > extroverts.)

        I'm only doing XP-for-one from home. No luck converting work
        to XP yet. There is some hope in that area, however.

        I've done some pairing in the past (before I knew about XP).
        But it's the practice that I've had the least experience
        with, so I tend to listen more than talk (type) when the
        topic of PP comes up.

        Kevin
      • David Corbin
        ... That s me. t ... Thanks much. Yet we never seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you care to explain, please.
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
          "C. J. M. Booth" wrote:
          >
          > Hi folks,
          >
          > There has been quite a lot of recent discussion about pairing, especially over long distances. That led me to notice the following. There are quite a few people who regularly/frequently post in this group who seem to be the only ones who post from their company/domain. For example (not an exhaustive list; just from memory; in no particular order):
          >
          > David Corbin

          That's me.
          t
          >
          > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make thoughtful comments based on their experience.

          Thanks much.

          Yet we never seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why
          that is. Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the
          explanation might make some reference to the difference between
          introverts and extroverts.)
          >

          I don't have a pair. There are three technical types in our business,
          and right now only one of them spends the bulk of the day doing
          programming. Two of us are busy trying to drum up business. I WANT to
          try XP, and I WANT to try PP, but we've got to find the right customer
          first.


          > Thanks in anticipation of some interesting answers,
          >
          > Chris.
          >
          > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings with your pairs?
          >
          > Christopher Booth, DERA Malvern, St Andrews Rd, Malvern, WR14 3PS. UK
          > Tel:+44 (0)1684 896400 mailto:cjmb@... Fax:+44 (0)1684 894389
          >
          > Don't play mind games with a telepath.
          >
          > The views expressed above are entirely mine and do not represent the
          > views, policy or understanding of any other person or official body.
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com

          --
          David Corbin
          Mach Turtle Technologies, Inc.
          http://www.machturtle.com
          dcorbin@...
        • Dossy
          ... [ ... ] ... Hi, Chris! Thanks for mentioning me! I guess the short answer is: until recently, I was a closet XP er. For many years, I ve done most of the
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
            On 2000.12.01, C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> wrote:
            > There are quite a few people who regularly/frequently post in this
            > group who seem to be the only ones who post from their company/domain.
            [ ... ]
            > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
            > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to
            > hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any
            > of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might
            > make some reference to the difference between introverts and
            > extroverts.)

            Hi, Chris! Thanks for mentioning me!

            I guess the short answer is: until recently, I was a closet XP'er.

            For many years, I've done most of the practices of XP. I did them
            because they came naturally. They produced the best results. They
            made the customer happy. I didn't have a name for my methodology,
            which made some people edgy but results speak for themselves.

            I never called it "pair programming" but I've always found working
            closely with someone else (whether it be the customer to determine
            requirements, or another developer to accomplish goals) worked
            better than doing things in a vacuum only to later find out of the
            edges of the two puzzles fit together.

            On the "smart people continuum" I'm somewhere near the bottom - I read
            very little, I barely study, and I can't keep too many ideas organized
            in my head at once. My abilities forced me to adopt a method of
            working that let me accomplish the most with the little resources
            I had: I make lots of small changes, and make sure that after each
            one, nothing broke. If I got sloppy and made multiple changes, I
            usually found myself having to back them all out and then applying
            one at a time until I found what broke, anyhow.

            Because I integrated often, in XP terms, I considered an iteration
            to be a day long. At the beginning of my day, I'd look at the
            outstanding tasks as prioritized by my customer and would figure
            out how many of them I could get done by the end of the day. I'd
            do them, and integrate them - the customer always saw progress,
            and was always happy with this. They felt like every day they
            were paying for has been well spent. (XP talks about iterations
            a bit longer, which probably works better for projects with more
            people - but I wonder if anyone else here uses or have tried
            iterations of one or two days long.)


            Then, I came across the XP white book and said "wow, validation
            for what I've been doing!" It's given me the courage to, of
            sorts, come "out of the closet" about my XP. I actually refer
            to things as being XP-like now, and have convinced some folks
            to read some of the XP books. I've got one of my "business
            customers" reading the XP green book, and he has since gotten
            copies of it for all of his people. By the middle of 2001,
            I want to make the white and pink books "required reading" for
            all of our developers here.


            Now, to answer your question about why only I post from my
            company? Panoptic Computer Network is a company of one - me.
            It's the company I started to do all my freelance work under,
            and to keep "my stuff" seperate from "my employer's stuff".

            Now, I'm currently employed by one of the world's largest
            educational publishers (I don't want to say which... feel
            free to send guesses to me in private email if you like)
            which is where I've really been applying XP. Until working
            here, I've only done the "informal XP" that I describe
            earlier in the email.

            Why am I the only one posting from *that* company? Because
            everyone else spends their time surfing the web rather
            than subscribing to mailing lists? Maybe they don't
            know about this mailing list, or mailing lists in general.
            Maybe they're all busy forwarding joke emails to their
            friends and family. I have no idea.


            > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings with
            > your pairs?

            Oh no, never! I wouldn't want them to know that I tell stories
            about them to bunch of strangers! They might not want to pair
            anymore if they knew I was off talking about what we'd done,
            haha.

            I do bring back what I learn on this list to the folks I work
            with, so in the end my organization does benefit, but I never
            mention what comes from my posts vs. others ...

            Maybe I should. But then, maybe they'd realize we were doing
            XP, and would start to resist. I think it's better the way
            things are ... ;-) ;-)

            - Dossy

            --
            Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
            Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
          • John Brewer
            ... Jera Design is currently a 1-person shop, so you won t see my pair partners posting from the same domain. Right now I m working with another 1-person
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
              --- In extremeprogramming@egroups.com, "C. J. M. Booth" <cjmb@a...>
              wrote:
              > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
              > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem
              > to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is.
              > Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the
              > explanation might make some reference to the difference between
              > introverts and extroverts.)

              Jera Design is currently a 1-person shop, so you won't see my
              pair partners posting from the same domain. Right now I'm working
              with another 1-person shop, pairing on some work, and doing some work
              alone. We've been doing both physical pairing (which involves a 90
              minute commute for one of us) and remote pairing via NetMeeting.

              I've also paired with a couple of people at one of my previous
              clients, although that sort of petered out after a while. My first
              first-hand experience with pairing by that name was at XP Immersion 2
              last Feb/March. Before that, I had occasionally paired, but
              always under the guise of "fixing a really hard bug".

              John Brewer
              Jera Design
            • kjray
              C. J. M. Booth on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote: [...] ... [...] One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and complains that he
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
                C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote:
                [...]
                >As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
                >thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to hear
                >from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you
                >care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
                >reference to the difference between introverts and extroverts.)
                [...]

                One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and
                complains that he gets too many messages. He would NOT be able to handle
                this XP mailing list, because his reading speed is not up for it. Many
                of my co-workers would also not be up for 50+ mail messages a day,
                whether in digest form or not, because they are not native English
                reader/speakers, or just not fast readers. This is probably more
                important than introvert/extrovert. Some would not read the mailing list
                at home, as I do, because they have a life / children / hobbies / etc.
              • David Corbin
                ... You raise valid point about people that can t read (English) very fast. But I don t know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources of knowledge
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
                  kjray wrote:
                  >
                  > C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote:
                  > [...]
                  > >As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
                  > >thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to hear
                  > >from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you
                  > >care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
                  > >reference to the difference between introverts and extroverts.)
                  > [...]
                  >
                  > One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and
                  > complains that he gets too many messages. He would NOT be able to handle
                  > this XP mailing list, because his reading speed is not up for it. Many
                  > of my co-workers would also not be up for 50+ mail messages a day,
                  > whether in digest form or not, because they are not native English
                  > reader/speakers, or just not fast readers. This is probably more
                  > important than introvert/extrovert. Some would not read the mailing list
                  > at home, as I do, because they have a life / children / hobbies / etc.
                  >

                  You raise valid point about people that can't read (English) very fast.
                  But I don't know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources
                  of knowledge such as this list provide. OTOH, Junit has had about 70
                  messages in 3 weeks. If you can't keep up with that, I think you're in
                  the wrong business. And I too have a life/hobbies/wife/etc. Sorry for
                  the rant. This is a pet-peeve of mine.

                  --
                  David Corbin
                  Mach Turtle Technologies, Inc.
                  http://www.machturtle.com
                  dcorbin@...
                • kjray
                  David Corbin on 12/2/00 10:59 AM wrote: [...] ... The one who complained about the JUnit mailing list is one of the best programmers
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
                    David Corbin <dcorbin@...> on 12/2/00 10:59 AM wrote:

                    [...]
                    >You raise valid point about people that can't read (English) very fast.
                    >But I don't know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources
                    >of knowledge such as this list provide. OTOH, Junit has had about 70
                    >messages in 3 weeks. If you can't keep up with that, I think you're in
                    >the wrong business. And I too have a life/hobbies/wife/etc. Sorry for
                    >the rant. This is a pet-peeve of mine.

                    The one who complained about the JUnit mailing list is one of the best
                    programmers I've worked with. However, when he read the book "Extreme
                    Programming Explained", he used a English-Korean dictionary to help him,
                    and sometimes asked me to explain idioms.

                    Unlike almost all of the not-very-good programmers I've worked with, he
                    _will_ read books to expand his education.

                    And he reads the bits I select from the XP mailing list. I try to pick
                    the best and most-relevant messages from the XP mailing list, which
                    average about 2 or 3 messages a week, and forward those to my co-workers.
                  • Robert Watkins
                    ... Well, in my case, we don t do XP. A small group of us are trying, and we re getting quite a few of the XP values and practices adopted, but
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
                      C.J.M. Booth writes:
                      > Robert Watkins
                      >
                      > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and
                      > make thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never
                      > seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that
                      > is. Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that
                      > the explanation might make some reference to the difference
                      > between introverts and extroverts.)

                      Well, in my case, we don't do XP. A small group of us are trying, and we're
                      getting quite a few of the XP values and practices adopted, but
                      pair-programming in particular is one our management doesn't want to
                      swallow. We get around it by pairing informally, especially senior-junior
                      people under the label of mentoring.

                      There were a couple of other guys here that posted intermittently, but
                      they've moved on. Another couple read the list. We've got a division of
                      labour, as well... monitoring the XP groups is one of my "tasks".

                      > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings
                      > with your pairs?

                      No, not usually. I frequently highlight messages on the list to the group I
                      work with, though.

                      Robert.

                      --
                      /\\\ Robert Watkins | Email: robert.watkins@...
                      ( ))) Software Engineer - Tech Dev | Ph: +61 7 3303 3432
                      \/// MINCOM Ltd | Fax: +61 7 3303 3232
                      Mincom

                      This transmission is for the intended addressee only and is confidential
                      information. If you have received this transmission in error, please
                      delete it and notify the sender. The contents of this e-mail are the
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                      expressly stated otherwise.
                    • Dossy
                      ... Wow, I wish my company would hire someone to sift through the XP mailing list and send me only a few relevant emails a day! - Dossy Excuse me while I
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
                        On 2000.12.02, kjray <kjray@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > And he reads the bits I select from the XP mailing list. I try to pick
                        > the best and most-relevant messages from the XP mailing list, which
                        > average about 2 or 3 messages a week, and forward those to my co-workers.
                        >

                        Wow, I wish my company would hire someone to sift through the XP
                        mailing list and send me only a few relevant emails a day!


                        - Dossy
                        Excuse me while I remove my tongue from my cheek.

                        --
                        Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
                        Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
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