Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XP] who do your pair with?

Expand Messages
  • Laurent Bossavit
    ... My explanation is fairly simple - I m still the only programmer in the team, doing XP for one . Incidentally, I m meeting a potential PP partner tonight -
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      Chris asks :

      > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
      > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem
      > to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is.

      My explanation is fairly simple - I'm still the only programmer in the
      team, doing "XP for one". Incidentally, I'm meeting a potential PP
      partner tonight - he has interviewed with management already, who
      have a favorable opinion, but they thoughtfully asked me to talk and
      pair with him to confirm that decision. What makes me even
      happier is that what they gave him by way of a job description was
      "we're looking for a PP partner for Laurent". At the very least my
      fears about transitioning from "XP for one" to "as nearly XP as we
      can manage" have been listened to.


      ========================================
      A successful technology creates problems
      that only it can solve.
      ========================================
      Laurent Bossavit - Software Architect
      >>> laurent.bossavit@... <<<
      >>> 06 68 15 11 44 <<<
      >> ICQ#39281367 <<
      Agence Bless http://www.agencebless.com/
      ========================================
    • Pardee, Tom
      ... Way to go Laurent - if he doesn t work out, send me some details on your company s re-lo package....In the meantime, good luck. My explanation is that I
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        > Chris asks :
        >
        > > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
        > > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem
        > > to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is.
        >
        > Laurent responds:
        > My explanation is fairly simple - I'm still the only
        > programmer in the
        > team, doing "XP for one". Incidentally, I'm meeting a potential PP
        > partner tonight - he has interviewed with management already, who
        > have a favorable opinion, but they thoughtfully asked me to talk and
        > pair with him to confirm that decision. What makes me even
        > happier is that what they gave him by way of a job description was
        > "we're looking for a PP partner for Laurent". At the very least my
        > fears about transitioning from "XP for one" to "as nearly XP as we
        > can manage" have been listened to.
        >
        Way to go Laurent - if he doesn't work out, send me some details on your
        company's re-lo package....In the meantime, good luck.

        My explanation is that I also don't have a partner. I am primarily an
        eBusiness strategist, technology & methodology evangelist, Architect,
        Proposal Writer, Project Manager - but only a little programmer. I adapted
        some XP practices into a methodology and led a small project team in a demo
        project; it was, however, put on the back shelf when the programmers were
        needed for client work. I have several initiatives for moving projects
        toward XP practices, but am mostly working 'under ground' right now.

        The programmers on the demo project liked PP and other aspects of the
        methodology. They were intermediate programmers, but new to the MS
        technology we were using on that project, so there was a lot of technology
        mentoring and learning going on simultaneously - good in its own right, but
        it obscured some of the benefits/shortcomings of the methodology.

        I will be sharing any useful observations from continuing/future
        projects...one of which is a COBOL maintenance project. For this I am
        espousing a test framework for testFirst, and optimizing the build mechanism
        for frequent integration testing. The PM for this effort has also shown
        interest in PP. If anyone has ideas for this, I'm interested.

        Thanks,
        Tom Pardee
        Principal Consultant
        Paragon Computer Professionals, Inc.
        Phone - (908) 653-3089 FAX - (908) 272-2009

        ThinkAhead*
        Think PARAGON
      • Kevin Smith
        ... I m only doing XP-for-one from home. No luck converting work to XP yet. There is some hope in that area, however. I ve done some pairing in the past
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice,
          > and make thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet
          > we never seem to hear from those that they pair with. I
          > wonder why that is. Would any of you care to explain,
          > please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
          > reference to the difference between introverts and
          > extroverts.)

          I'm only doing XP-for-one from home. No luck converting work
          to XP yet. There is some hope in that area, however.

          I've done some pairing in the past (before I knew about XP).
          But it's the practice that I've had the least experience
          with, so I tend to listen more than talk (type) when the
          topic of PP comes up.

          Kevin
        • David Corbin
          ... That s me. t ... Thanks much. Yet we never seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you care to explain, please.
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            "C. J. M. Booth" wrote:
            >
            > Hi folks,
            >
            > There has been quite a lot of recent discussion about pairing, especially over long distances. That led me to notice the following. There are quite a few people who regularly/frequently post in this group who seem to be the only ones who post from their company/domain. For example (not an exhaustive list; just from memory; in no particular order):
            >
            > David Corbin

            That's me.
            t
            >
            > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make thoughtful comments based on their experience.

            Thanks much.

            Yet we never seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why
            that is. Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the
            explanation might make some reference to the difference between
            introverts and extroverts.)
            >

            I don't have a pair. There are three technical types in our business,
            and right now only one of them spends the bulk of the day doing
            programming. Two of us are busy trying to drum up business. I WANT to
            try XP, and I WANT to try PP, but we've got to find the right customer
            first.


            > Thanks in anticipation of some interesting answers,
            >
            > Chris.
            >
            > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings with your pairs?
            >
            > Christopher Booth, DERA Malvern, St Andrews Rd, Malvern, WR14 3PS. UK
            > Tel:+44 (0)1684 896400 mailto:cjmb@... Fax:+44 (0)1684 894389
            >
            > Don't play mind games with a telepath.
            >
            > The views expressed above are entirely mine and do not represent the
            > views, policy or understanding of any other person or official body.
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > Ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com

            --
            David Corbin
            Mach Turtle Technologies, Inc.
            http://www.machturtle.com
            dcorbin@...
          • Dossy
            ... [ ... ] ... Hi, Chris! Thanks for mentioning me! I guess the short answer is: until recently, I was a closet XP er. For many years, I ve done most of the
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              On 2000.12.01, C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> wrote:
              > There are quite a few people who regularly/frequently post in this
              > group who seem to be the only ones who post from their company/domain.
              [ ... ]
              > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
              > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to
              > hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any
              > of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might
              > make some reference to the difference between introverts and
              > extroverts.)

              Hi, Chris! Thanks for mentioning me!

              I guess the short answer is: until recently, I was a closet XP'er.

              For many years, I've done most of the practices of XP. I did them
              because they came naturally. They produced the best results. They
              made the customer happy. I didn't have a name for my methodology,
              which made some people edgy but results speak for themselves.

              I never called it "pair programming" but I've always found working
              closely with someone else (whether it be the customer to determine
              requirements, or another developer to accomplish goals) worked
              better than doing things in a vacuum only to later find out of the
              edges of the two puzzles fit together.

              On the "smart people continuum" I'm somewhere near the bottom - I read
              very little, I barely study, and I can't keep too many ideas organized
              in my head at once. My abilities forced me to adopt a method of
              working that let me accomplish the most with the little resources
              I had: I make lots of small changes, and make sure that after each
              one, nothing broke. If I got sloppy and made multiple changes, I
              usually found myself having to back them all out and then applying
              one at a time until I found what broke, anyhow.

              Because I integrated often, in XP terms, I considered an iteration
              to be a day long. At the beginning of my day, I'd look at the
              outstanding tasks as prioritized by my customer and would figure
              out how many of them I could get done by the end of the day. I'd
              do them, and integrate them - the customer always saw progress,
              and was always happy with this. They felt like every day they
              were paying for has been well spent. (XP talks about iterations
              a bit longer, which probably works better for projects with more
              people - but I wonder if anyone else here uses or have tried
              iterations of one or two days long.)


              Then, I came across the XP white book and said "wow, validation
              for what I've been doing!" It's given me the courage to, of
              sorts, come "out of the closet" about my XP. I actually refer
              to things as being XP-like now, and have convinced some folks
              to read some of the XP books. I've got one of my "business
              customers" reading the XP green book, and he has since gotten
              copies of it for all of his people. By the middle of 2001,
              I want to make the white and pink books "required reading" for
              all of our developers here.


              Now, to answer your question about why only I post from my
              company? Panoptic Computer Network is a company of one - me.
              It's the company I started to do all my freelance work under,
              and to keep "my stuff" seperate from "my employer's stuff".

              Now, I'm currently employed by one of the world's largest
              educational publishers (I don't want to say which... feel
              free to send guesses to me in private email if you like)
              which is where I've really been applying XP. Until working
              here, I've only done the "informal XP" that I describe
              earlier in the email.

              Why am I the only one posting from *that* company? Because
              everyone else spends their time surfing the web rather
              than subscribing to mailing lists? Maybe they don't
              know about this mailing list, or mailing lists in general.
              Maybe they're all busy forwarding joke emails to their
              friends and family. I have no idea.


              > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings with
              > your pairs?

              Oh no, never! I wouldn't want them to know that I tell stories
              about them to bunch of strangers! They might not want to pair
              anymore if they knew I was off talking about what we'd done,
              haha.

              I do bring back what I learn on this list to the folks I work
              with, so in the end my organization does benefit, but I never
              mention what comes from my posts vs. others ...

              Maybe I should. But then, maybe they'd realize we were doing
              XP, and would start to resist. I think it's better the way
              things are ... ;-) ;-)

              - Dossy

              --
              Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
              Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
            • John Brewer
              ... Jera Design is currently a 1-person shop, so you won t see my pair partners posting from the same domain. Right now I m working with another 1-person
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 1, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In extremeprogramming@egroups.com, "C. J. M. Booth" <cjmb@a...>
                wrote:
                > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
                > thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem
                > to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is.
                > Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that the
                > explanation might make some reference to the difference between
                > introverts and extroverts.)

                Jera Design is currently a 1-person shop, so you won't see my
                pair partners posting from the same domain. Right now I'm working
                with another 1-person shop, pairing on some work, and doing some work
                alone. We've been doing both physical pairing (which involves a 90
                minute commute for one of us) and remote pairing via NetMeeting.

                I've also paired with a couple of people at one of my previous
                clients, although that sort of petered out after a while. My first
                first-hand experience with pairing by that name was at XP Immersion 2
                last Feb/March. Before that, I had occasionally paired, but
                always under the guise of "fixing a really hard bug".

                John Brewer
                Jera Design
              • kjray
                C. J. M. Booth on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote: [...] ... [...] One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and complains that he
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote:
                  [...]
                  >As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
                  >thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to hear
                  >from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you
                  >care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
                  >reference to the difference between introverts and extroverts.)
                  [...]

                  One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and
                  complains that he gets too many messages. He would NOT be able to handle
                  this XP mailing list, because his reading speed is not up for it. Many
                  of my co-workers would also not be up for 50+ mail messages a day,
                  whether in digest form or not, because they are not native English
                  reader/speakers, or just not fast readers. This is probably more
                  important than introvert/extrovert. Some would not read the mailing list
                  at home, as I do, because they have a life / children / hobbies / etc.
                • David Corbin
                  ... You raise valid point about people that can t read (English) very fast. But I don t know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources of knowledge
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
                  • 0 Attachment
                    kjray wrote:
                    >
                    > C. J. M. Booth <cjmb@...> on 12/1/00 2:33 AM wrote:
                    > [...]
                    > >As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and make
                    > >thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never seem to hear
                    > >from those that they pair with. I wonder why that is. Would any of you
                    > >care to explain, please. (I suspect that the explanation might make some
                    > >reference to the difference between introverts and extroverts.)
                    > [...]
                    >
                    > One of my team-members is subscribed to the junit mailing list, and
                    > complains that he gets too many messages. He would NOT be able to handle
                    > this XP mailing list, because his reading speed is not up for it. Many
                    > of my co-workers would also not be up for 50+ mail messages a day,
                    > whether in digest form or not, because they are not native English
                    > reader/speakers, or just not fast readers. This is probably more
                    > important than introvert/extrovert. Some would not read the mailing list
                    > at home, as I do, because they have a life / children / hobbies / etc.
                    >

                    You raise valid point about people that can't read (English) very fast.
                    But I don't know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources
                    of knowledge such as this list provide. OTOH, Junit has had about 70
                    messages in 3 weeks. If you can't keep up with that, I think you're in
                    the wrong business. And I too have a life/hobbies/wife/etc. Sorry for
                    the rant. This is a pet-peeve of mine.

                    --
                    David Corbin
                    Mach Turtle Technologies, Inc.
                    http://www.machturtle.com
                    dcorbin@...
                  • kjray
                    David Corbin on 12/2/00 10:59 AM wrote: [...] ... The one who complained about the JUnit mailing list is one of the best programmers
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 2, 2000
                    • 0 Attachment
                      David Corbin <dcorbin@...> on 12/2/00 10:59 AM wrote:

                      [...]
                      >You raise valid point about people that can't read (English) very fast.
                      >But I don't know how any career programmer can ignore the vast sources
                      >of knowledge such as this list provide. OTOH, Junit has had about 70
                      >messages in 3 weeks. If you can't keep up with that, I think you're in
                      >the wrong business. And I too have a life/hobbies/wife/etc. Sorry for
                      >the rant. This is a pet-peeve of mine.

                      The one who complained about the JUnit mailing list is one of the best
                      programmers I've worked with. However, when he read the book "Extreme
                      Programming Explained", he used a English-Korean dictionary to help him,
                      and sometimes asked me to explain idioms.

                      Unlike almost all of the not-very-good programmers I've worked with, he
                      _will_ read books to expand his education.

                      And he reads the bits I select from the XP mailing list. I try to pick
                      the best and most-relevant messages from the XP mailing list, which
                      average about 2 or 3 messages a week, and forward those to my co-workers.
                    • Robert Watkins
                      ... Well, in my case, we don t do XP. A small group of us are trying, and we re getting quite a few of the XP values and practices adopted, but
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
                      • 0 Attachment
                        C.J.M. Booth writes:
                        > Robert Watkins
                        >
                        > As far as I can tell, all these people give sound advice, and
                        > make thoughtful comments based on their experience. Yet we never
                        > seem to hear from those that they pair with. I wonder why that
                        > is. Would any of you care to explain, please. (I suspect that
                        > the explanation might make some reference to the difference
                        > between introverts and extroverts.)

                        Well, in my case, we don't do XP. A small group of us are trying, and we're
                        getting quite a few of the XP values and practices adopted, but
                        pair-programming in particular is one our management doesn't want to
                        swallow. We get around it by pairing informally, especially senior-junior
                        people under the label of mentoring.

                        There were a couple of other guys here that posted intermittently, but
                        they've moved on. Another couple read the list. We've got a division of
                        labour, as well... monitoring the XP groups is one of my "tasks".

                        > PS Another question: do you folks talk over any of your postings
                        > with your pairs?

                        No, not usually. I frequently highlight messages on the list to the group I
                        work with, though.

                        Robert.

                        --
                        /\\\ Robert Watkins | Email: robert.watkins@...
                        ( ))) Software Engineer - Tech Dev | Ph: +61 7 3303 3432
                        \/// MINCOM Ltd | Fax: +61 7 3303 3232
                        Mincom

                        This transmission is for the intended addressee only and is confidential
                        information. If you have received this transmission in error, please
                        delete it and notify the sender. The contents of this e-mail are the
                        opinion of the writer only and are not endorsed by Mincom Limited unless
                        expressly stated otherwise.
                      • Dossy
                        ... Wow, I wish my company would hire someone to sift through the XP mailing list and send me only a few relevant emails a day! - Dossy Excuse me while I
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On 2000.12.02, kjray <kjray@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > And he reads the bits I select from the XP mailing list. I try to pick
                          > the best and most-relevant messages from the XP mailing list, which
                          > average about 2 or 3 messages a week, and forward those to my co-workers.
                          >

                          Wow, I wish my company would hire someone to sift through the XP
                          mailing list and send me only a few relevant emails a day!


                          - Dossy
                          Excuse me while I remove my tongue from my cheek.

                          --
                          Dossy Shiobara mail: dossy@...
                          Panoptic Computer Network web: http://www.panoptic.com/
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.