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first I've heard of daily pay

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  • Keith Ray
    The first time I ve heard of daily pay seriously proposed. I have heard of billing weekly. a question on LinkedIn: Jason Dante Freelance Sales and Events
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 14, 2014
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      The first time I've heard of daily pay seriously proposed. I have heard of billing weekly.

      a question on LinkedIn:

      Jason Dante Freelance Sales and Events Manager ★ Social Entrepreneur ★ Volunteer :

      Why is it so hard to find a reputable App developer/designer?

      I've tried to launch a couple of projects but am constantly pitted against designers who talk the talk but cant walk the walk. Can anyone recommend one they have had some success with?

      reply from Doug Panchyshyn iOS Developer, Android Developer & Web Apps :

      @Brian Shanahan, I came across an exceptional way to deal with obstacles and issues when doing software development. It's not rocket science, it's simple. There is something magical that happens when you pay your people daily. Yes, you heard correctly. Daily. Today, with electronic payment systems you can pay daily. Sure you will get those that balk at this method, and it comes mostly from those who shirk responsibility and/or ability. You will find that these one don't have anything of value to discourage you from using it. 

      Using this method, helps managers who are required sign off on what was done that day by a designer or developer. rather than leave it until a week of expenses has accumulated. With this method, if nothing was done that day by the developer, in their contract, they agree that they don't get paid for that day. Paying daily helps so that things don't drag out over a week, or worse, two weeks to a month. It measures managers, it eliminates amateurs, it measures developers, it measures you, it stops finger pointing, it helps everyone start figuring out what can be done in a day. 

      It also helps with future projects for estimating purposes. It nicely isolates multiple developers on a team. It helps reduce cost by pulling in integrators only when you need them. It helps measure milestones. It keeps everyone happy. It eliminates the weak and keeps feeding the strong. It helps you. Watch out for those that reject this method. Usually the main ones that reject would it are procrastinators; not all, but a lot who reject it are un-open to progress.

      I hope this helps.

      http://www.DougPan.com

      Also on this discussion were questions about how to screen programmers and designers, but those were mostly unanswered. 

      Discussion veered into $5-$15/hour pay rates outside the USA versus $60-$250/hour inside the USA; and $60,000 - $150,000 per project for a sizable mobile app project inside the USA, versus $2,000 - $4,000 per project outside the USA. And how you can/can't develope a good mobile app for $2,000. And this bit:


      reply from SaVon Masters Independent Motion Pictures and Film Professional :
      [...]
      I have one [app] that I'm writing up that I've been told will cost me around 150-175k. No way I have that kind of money to just hand over to someone for an app, especially knowing that someone in China, Russia, India, Pakistan is willing to do the exact same app for 2-4k. When I tell them how much the app cost over here they talk to me like I'm crazy. Yea, it's possible that they are scammers, but not all of them. Some have apps already in the app stores and give you their resumes. For that matter I could charter a plane, stay the MONTH in Russia or China or where ever, pay them the money to do my app, drink their finest wines and stay in a great hotel. Stay an extra week after they were done with the app, and still wouldn't have spent $150,000. 

      Just saying.


      http://www.linkedin.com/groupItem?view=&srchtype=discussedNews&gid=2013391&item=255483446&type=member&trk=eml-anet_dig-b_pd-pmt-cn&fromEmail=&ut=13iOiYXskH6S81

    • Phlip
      I estimate 5 hours for this, 15 hours for that to bill, logging more GIT checkins per hour than that (my script meters check-ins), and charging to that hour.
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 15, 2014
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        I estimate "5 hours for this, 15 hours for that" to bill, logging more GIT checkins per hour than that (my script meters check-ins), and charging to that hour. The client's original investment stays solid no matter how many times I must walk the Maltese dominating this house ~ I can always just kick off another Grand Wazoo test run while we're out. The customer enjoys divide-and-conquer tactics that always work, and the actual wall-clock time is up to twice. This hasn't failed me yet, except it sends the missus into a tizzy each and every time because she dun'a ken or over-over-stand a "gift-economy"...

        btw anyone need a test zealot?
      • Ron Jeffries
        Phlip, ... ThatÆs lyrical but I donÆt understand it. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Sometimes I give myself admirable advice, but I am incapable of taking
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 15, 2014
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          Phlip,

          On Feb 15, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:

          I estimate "5 hours for this, 15 hours for that" to bill, logging more GIT checkins per hour than that (my script meters check-ins), and charging to that hour. The client's original investment stays solid no matter how many times I must walk the Maltese dominating this house ~ I can always just kick off another Grand Wazoo test run while we're out. The customer enjoys divide-and-conquer tactics that always work, and the actual wall-clock time is up to twice. This hasn't failed me yet, except it sends the missus into a tizzy each and every time because she dun'a ken or over-over-stand a "gift-economy"...

          That’s lyrical but I don’t understand it.

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Sometimes I give myself admirable advice, but I am incapable of taking it.
          -- Mary Wortley Montagu



        • Francis Fish
          ... I got about half of it, creating customer visible activity by running big test suite. M self I try and deliver value and don t work for people who want to
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 15, 2014
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            On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
             

            Phlip,


            On Feb 15, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:

            I estimate "5 hours for this, 15 hours for that" to bill, logging more GIT checkins per hour than that (my script meters check-ins), and charging to that hour. The client's original investment stays solid no matter how many times I must walk the Maltese dominating this house ~ I can always just kick off another Grand Wazoo test run while we're out. The customer enjoys divide-and-conquer tactics that always work, and the actual wall-clock time is up to twice. This hasn't failed me yet, except it sends the missus into a tizzy each and every time because she dun'a ken or over-over-stand a "gift-economy"...

            That’s lyrical but I don’t understand it.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            Sometimes I give myself admirable advice, but I am incapable of taking it.
            -- Mary Wortley Montagu


            I got about half of it, creating customer visible activity by running big test suite. M'self I try and deliver value and don't work for people who want to buy hours. If that's what they want they can get some other mug.

            For example, just had not very amusing low-level systems problem with Android (won't bore with details) that took half a day. I didn't check anything in, but still expect to be paid, thanks. They're paying us for the app and my 30 years before the mast, after all. 

            As for designers/developers not delivering etc. etc. then clients should

            a) Be clear about requirements
            b) Give timely feedback
            c) Answer the phone/email when there's a problem promptly
            d) Take some responsibility for what they want (this more than anything)

            I could go on, but I think people on this list are all about value, not hours. Knowledge work isn't turning a handle, if it was then we wouldn't be paid the pretty decent bucks we are to do it. Hours are so ... 1920's. :)

            --
            Thanks and Regards,

            Francis

            07764 225 942

            "So when targets seem stupid, arbitrary and unfair it's because they are. The only way to improve is to look at the whole system people are operating with, the basic tools, their training, how much initiative they are allowed, are you measuring the right things (more about that later) and then you can improve. But it's the *system* you improve, not the people you beat into performing even worse." Unicorns in the mist
          • Steven Gordon
            Let s not pretend. There are a lot of apps whose business case does not require them to stand the test of time, be bug-free, or work on every type of device.
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 15, 2014
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              Let's not pretend.

              There are a lot of "apps" whose business case does not require them to stand the test of time, be bug-free, or work on every type of device.  There are a lot of apps that are throwaway, as are the people who program them.  There are a lot of apps where the cost of hiring somebody on this list would make no business sense.  There are plenty of struggling programmers who could not make a living any other way and could not be bothered to learn how to do better.

              I have absolutely no problem with somebody in the business of building short-lived, quick-hit apps playing the game that this person does.  We do not have to do business with them or even care about what they do - they are simply not even in the same business that we are.  

              They only problem I have is when people in that business pretend (or erroneously believe) that they are doing real software development.


              On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Francis Fish <francis@...> wrote:
               




              On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
               

              Phlip,


              On Feb 15, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:

              I estimate "5 hours for this, 15 hours for that" to bill, logging more GIT checkins per hour than that (my script meters check-ins), and charging to that hour. The client's original investment stays solid no matter how many times I must walk the Maltese dominating this house ~ I can always just kick off another Grand Wazoo test run while we're out. The customer enjoys divide-and-conquer tactics that always work, and the actual wall-clock time is up to twice. This hasn't failed me yet, except it sends the missus into a tizzy each and every time because she dun'a ken or over-over-stand a "gift-economy"...

              That’s lyrical but I don’t understand it.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Sometimes I give myself admirable advice, but I am incapable of taking it.
              -- Mary Wortley Montagu


              I got about half of it, creating customer visible activity by running big test suite. M'self I try and deliver value and don't work for people who want to buy hours. If that's what they want they can get some other mug.

              For example, just had not very amusing low-level systems problem with Android (won't bore with details) that took half a day. I didn't check anything in, but still expect to be paid, thanks. They're paying us for the app and my 30 years before the mast, after all. 

              As for designers/developers not delivering etc. etc. then clients should

              a) Be clear about requirements
              b) Give timely feedback
              c) Answer the phone/email when there's a problem promptly
              d) Take some responsibility for what they want (this more than anything)

              I could go on, but I think people on this list are all about value, not hours. Knowledge work isn't turning a handle, if it was then we wouldn't be paid the pretty decent bucks we are to do it. Hours are so ... 1920's. :)

              --
              Thanks and Regards,

              Francis

              07764 225 942

              "So when targets seem stupid, arbitrary and unfair it's because they are. The only way to improve is to look at the whole system people are operating with, the basic tools, their training, how much initiative they are allowed, are you measuring the right things (more about that later) and then you can improve. But it's the *system* you improve, not the people you beat into performing even worse." Unicorns in the mist


            • Phlip
              ... I don t charge wall clock time. I charge the meter - every 15 minutes, with the overlaps removed, of integrating with Git. That makes a billable log. I
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 15, 2014
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                > I estimate "5 hours for this, 15 hours for that" to bill, logging more GIT checkins per hour than that (my script meters check-ins), and charge to that hour.

                I don't charge wall clock time. I charge the meter - every 15 minutes, with the overlaps removed, of integrating with Git. That makes a billable log. I once charged per git login. It makes noodling around with some interesting part of the code all weekend so much more tractable.


              • M. Manca
                ... It is just a convention, be payed daily, weekly, bi weekly or monthly is not a problem. Surely I can t make an invoice every day, I would like to make not
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 16, 2014
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                  Il 16/02/2014 00:47, Phlip ha scritto:
                  >
                  >
                  >> > I estimate "5 hours for this, 15 hours for that" to bill,
                  >> logging more GIT checkins per hour than that (my script meters
                  >> check-ins), and charge to that hour.
                  >
                  >
                  > I don't charge wall clock time. I charge the meter - every 15 minutes,
                  > with the overlaps removed, of integrating with Git. That makes a
                  > billable log. I once charged per git login. It makes noodling around
                  > with some interesting part of the code all weekend so much more tractable.
                  >
                  It is just a convention, be payed daily, weekly, bi weekly or monthly is
                  not a problem. Surely I can't make an invoice every day, I would like to
                  make not more then 1 invoice each month.

                  I don't understand who said that he charges in terms of git logins. I
                  understand that there is a velocity related problem but I don't
                  understand how to charge my work in different terms then charging hours
                  of work or signing a fixed goal contract.

                  May you explain better how you charge in terms of git logins?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Phlip
                  ... Each time I commit to Git, a script records that nearby 15 minutes, minus any minutes already in progress. So each week, I charge 250 to 2500 cash. Drives
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 16, 2014
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                    M. Manca wrote:

                    > Il 16/02/2014 00:47, Phlip ha scritto:

                    >>> > I estimate "5 hours for this, 15 hours for that" to bill,
                    >>> logging more GIT checkins per hour than that (my script meters
                    >>> check-ins), and charge to that hour.

                    >> I don't charge wall clock time. I charge the meter - every 15 minutes,
                    >> with the overlaps removed, of integrating with Git. That makes a
                    >> billable log. I once charged per git login. It makes noodling around
                    >> with some interesting part of the code all weekend so much more tractable.

                    > It is just a convention, be payed daily, weekly, bi weekly or monthly is
                    > not a problem. Surely I can't make an invoice every day, I would like to
                    > make not more then 1 invoice each month.

                    > I don't understand who said that he charges in terms of git logins. I
                    > understand that there is a velocity related problem but I don't
                    > understand how to charge my work in different terms then charging hours
                    > of work or signing a fixed goal contract.

                    >> May you explain better how you charge in terms of git logins?

                    >> Questa e-mail è priva di virus e malware perché è attiva la protezione
                    >> avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/> .

                    Each time I commit to Git, a script records that nearby 15 minutes,
                    minus any minutes already in progress.

                    So each week, I charge 250 to 2500 cash. Drives certain parties nuts;
                    who's to tell?
                  • Phlip
                    I do it because it s a flat trace of the energy I put into a software project. Oh, and I can t commit if I can t pass the ...
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 16, 2014
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                      I do it because it's a flat trace of the energy I put into a software
                      project. Oh, and I can't commit if I can't pass the ...
                    • M. Manca
                      ... I really can t understand your way. May be that in your particular situation could be really a flat trace of your effort but speaking in general terms I
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 16, 2014
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                        Il 16/02/2014 16:46, Phlip ha scritto:
                        >
                        >
                        > I do it because it's a flat trace of the energy I put into a software
                        > project. Oh, and I can't commit if I can't pass the ...
                        >
                        I really can't understand your way. May be that in your particular
                        situation could be really a flat trace of your effort but speaking in
                        general terms I don't agree with you.

                        To see that we really work we could show the differences among the
                        source code every day (I mean between morning and evening) obtaining the
                        same result. But I am convinced that it is not a good metric because
                        there are activities that can't be measured in SLOCs as documentation,
                        design, meetings, reading and learning, phone support or email support
                        and answering.

                        In my experience (more then 25 years) of sw design there isn't only
                        source code writing. I would say also that writing less SLOC should mean
                        more efficient code and application running faster. And these are only 2
                        simply examples, surely there are tons of other examples to show that
                        SLOCs and effort aren't directly related.

                        How can you charge for your effort considering also these arguments?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > <http://www.avast.com/>
                        >
                        > Questa e-mail è priva di virus e malware perché è attiva la protezione
                        > avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/> .
                        >
                        >




                        logo
                        *

                        Massimo Manca*/, Micron Engineering/
                        via della Ferriera, 48 33170 Pordenone PN ITALIA
                        Tel: 39 0434 1856131| Mobile: 39 349 4504979
                        www.micronengineering.it

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                      • George Dinwiddie
                        M. Note that Phlip is describing what he does, not mandating it on others. Commits show him that he is actively working on the code. In a sense, it s like
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 16, 2014
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                          M.

                          Note that Phlip is describing what he does, not mandating it on others.

                          Commits show him that he is actively working on the code. In a sense,
                          it's like punching a timeclock. Whenever he commits new code, he assumes
                          he's been working 0 to 15 minutes on the customer's behalf, depending on
                          how recently was the previous commit. This way he doesn't have to
                          manually track his time. He'd rather write code than track time.

                          On 2/16/14, 11:30 AM, M. Manca wrote:
                          > Il 16/02/2014 16:46, Phlip ha scritto:
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> I do it because it's a flat trace of the energy I put into a software
                          >> project. Oh, and I can't commit if I can't pass the ...
                          >>
                          > I really can't understand your way. May be that in your particular
                          > situation could be really a flat trace of your effort but speaking in
                          > general terms I don't agree with you.
                          >
                          > To see that we really work we could show the differences among the
                          > source code every day (I mean between morning and evening) obtaining the
                          > same result. But I am convinced that it is not a good metric because
                          > there are activities that can't be measured in SLOCs as documentation,
                          > design, meetings, reading and learning, phone support or email support
                          > and answering.

                          I'm sure that Phlip minimizes the amount of time spent doing
                          documentation, design, meetings, etc. And when he does these things, he
                          does them in small increments. When he goes over the 15 minute threshold
                          in overhead activities, he's doing it on his own nickel. That's an
                          incentive to produce valuable software for the client, instead.

                          For Phlip, the incentive is unlikely to be the reason he's driven to
                          produce valuable software, but is an artifact of the fact that he is
                          already prone to produce valuable software. His measurement technique is
                          skewed by his sense of fairness to his client, not by a need to motivate
                          or to maximize income.

                          >
                          > In my experience (more then 25 years) of sw design there isn't only
                          > source code writing. I would say also that writing less SLOC should mean
                          > more efficient code and application running faster. And these are only 2
                          > simply examples, surely there are tons of other examples to show that
                          > SLOCs and effort aren't directly related.

                          Phlip isn't measuring SLOCs. He's measuring commits. Some of those might
                          be refactoring, but I'd bet that most of them are making a new test
                          pass. Therefore, measuring time by commits is a rough approximation to
                          measuring time making forward progress for the client.

                          >
                          > How can you charge for your effort considering also these arguments?

                          Are you saying that Phlip is charging too little for his work? Are you
                          saying he should be charging for effort rather than progress?

                          - George

                          --
                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                          * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                          Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                          Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                        • M. Manca
                          ... I don t think he only writes source code and to track time there are many efficient possibilities better then git commits. I previously understood what you
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 16, 2014
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                            Il 16/02/2014 19:46, George Dinwiddie ha scritto:
                            >
                            >
                            > M.
                            >
                            > Note that Phlip is describing what he does, not mandating it on others.
                            >
                            > Commits show him that he is actively working on the code. In a sense,
                            > it's like punching a timeclock. Whenever he commits new code, he assumes
                            > he's been working 0 to 15 minutes on the customer's behalf, depending on
                            > how recently was the previous commit. This way he doesn't have to
                            > manually track his time. He'd rather write code than track time.
                            >
                            I don't think he only writes source code and to track time there are
                            many efficient possibilities better then git commits.
                            I previously understood what you said, it doesn't help me to understand
                            why he decided to track time in this way.
                            There are a lot of questions that may arise:
                            1. what is the difference if you commit every 15 minutes or every 10
                            minutes?
                            2. Do you commit at specific frequency also if your source code doesn't
                            compile or doesn't pass unit tests?
                            3. What happens if you take a phone call?
                            These are just 3 examples I think I may have a lot of other simple
                            questions.
                            >
                            >
                            > On 2/16/14, 11:30 AM, M. Manca wrote:
                            > > Il 16/02/2014 16:46, Phlip ha scritto:
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> I do it because it's a flat trace of the energy I put into a software
                            > >> project. Oh, and I can't commit if I can't pass the ...
                            > >>
                            > > I really can't understand your way. May be that in your particular
                            > > situation could be really a flat trace of your effort but speaking in
                            > > general terms I don't agree with you.
                            > >
                            > > To see that we really work we could show the differences among the
                            > > source code every day (I mean between morning and evening) obtaining the
                            > > same result. But I am convinced that it is not a good metric because
                            > > there are activities that can't be measured in SLOCs as documentation,
                            > > design, meetings, reading and learning, phone support or email support
                            > > and answering.
                            >
                            > I'm sure that Phlip minimizes the amount of time spent doing
                            > documentation, design, meetings, etc. And when he does these things, he
                            > does them in small increments. When he goes over the 15 minute threshold
                            > in overhead activities, he's doing it on his own nickel. That's an
                            > incentive to produce valuable software for the client, instead.
                            >
                            > For Phlip, the incentive is unlikely to be the reason he's driven to
                            > produce valuable software, but is an artifact of the fact that he is
                            > already prone to produce valuable software. His measurement technique is
                            > skewed by his sense of fairness to his client, not by a need to motivate
                            > or to maximize income.
                            >
                            > >
                            > > In my experience (more then 25 years) of sw design there isn't only
                            > > source code writing. I would say also that writing less SLOC should mean
                            > > more efficient code and application running faster. And these are only 2
                            > > simply examples, surely there are tons of other examples to show that
                            > > SLOCs and effort aren't directly related.
                            >
                            > Phlip isn't measuring SLOCs. He's measuring commits. Some of those might
                            > be refactoring, but I'd bet that most of them are making a new test
                            > pass. Therefore, measuring time by commits is a rough approximation to
                            > measuring time making forward progress for the client.
                            >
                            > >
                            > > How can you charge for your effort considering also these arguments?
                            >
                            > Are you saying that Phlip is charging too little for his work? Are you
                            > saying he should be charging for effort rather than progress?
                            >
                            > - George
                            >
                            > --
                            > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                            > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                            > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                            > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • George Dinwiddie
                            M. ... I doubt Phlip give a flying fig about efficiency in tracking time. He s found a way that works well enough for his needs. ... Ah, I thought you didn t
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 16, 2014
                            • 0 Attachment
                              M.

                              On 2/16/14, 3:54 PM, M. Manca wrote:
                              > Il 16/02/2014 19:46, George Dinwiddie ha scritto:
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> M.
                              >>
                              >> Note that Phlip is describing what he does, not mandating it on others.
                              >>
                              >> Commits show him that he is actively working on the code. In a sense,
                              >> it's like punching a timeclock. Whenever he commits new code, he assumes
                              >> he's been working 0 to 15 minutes on the customer's behalf, depending on
                              >> how recently was the previous commit. This way he doesn't have to
                              >> manually track his time. He'd rather write code than track time.
                              >>
                              > I don't think he only writes source code and to track time there are
                              > many efficient possibilities better then git commits.

                              I doubt Phlip give a flying fig about efficiency in tracking time. He's
                              found a way that works well enough for his needs.

                              > I previously understood what you said, it doesn't help me to understand
                              > why he decided to track time in this way.

                              Ah, I thought you didn't understand it. Does it matter why?

                              > There are a lot of questions that may arise:
                              > 1. what is the difference if you commit every 15 minutes or every 10
                              > minutes?

                              It doesn't matter.

                              > 2. Do you commit at specific frequency also if your source code doesn't
                              > compile or doesn't pass unit tests?

                              Of course he doesn't. Only on a green bar.

                              > 3. What happens if you take a phone call?

                              Then the client doesn't get charged for time if the next commit goes
                              beyond 15 minutes.

                              > These are just 3 examples I think I may have a lot of other simple
                              > questions.

                              You can ask an infinite number of simple questions. The point is that
                              Phlip has found a way to track his billable work that seems fair to him
                              and his clients. It works for him because he's disciplined about TDD.

                              Why does his means of tracking billable time matter to you?

                              - George

                              >>
                              >>
                              >> On 2/16/14, 11:30 AM, M. Manca wrote:
                              >>> Il 16/02/2014 16:46, Phlip ha scritto:
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>> I do it because it's a flat trace of the energy I put into a software
                              >>>> project. Oh, and I can't commit if I can't pass the ...
                              >>>>
                              >>> I really can't understand your way. May be that in your particular
                              >>> situation could be really a flat trace of your effort but speaking in
                              >>> general terms I don't agree with you.
                              >>>
                              >>> To see that we really work we could show the differences among the
                              >>> source code every day (I mean between morning and evening) obtaining the
                              >>> same result. But I am convinced that it is not a good metric because
                              >>> there are activities that can't be measured in SLOCs as documentation,
                              >>> design, meetings, reading and learning, phone support or email support
                              >>> and answering.
                              >>
                              >> I'm sure that Phlip minimizes the amount of time spent doing
                              >> documentation, design, meetings, etc. And when he does these things, he
                              >> does them in small increments. When he goes over the 15 minute threshold
                              >> in overhead activities, he's doing it on his own nickel. That's an
                              >> incentive to produce valuable software for the client, instead.
                              >>
                              >> For Phlip, the incentive is unlikely to be the reason he's driven to
                              >> produce valuable software, but is an artifact of the fact that he is
                              >> already prone to produce valuable software. His measurement technique is
                              >> skewed by his sense of fairness to his client, not by a need to motivate
                              >> or to maximize income.
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>> In my experience (more then 25 years) of sw design there isn't only
                              >>> source code writing. I would say also that writing less SLOC should mean
                              >>> more efficient code and application running faster. And these are only 2
                              >>> simply examples, surely there are tons of other examples to show that
                              >>> SLOCs and effort aren't directly related.
                              >>
                              >> Phlip isn't measuring SLOCs. He's measuring commits. Some of those might
                              >> be refactoring, but I'd bet that most of them are making a new test
                              >> pass. Therefore, measuring time by commits is a rough approximation to
                              >> measuring time making forward progress for the client.
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>> How can you charge for your effort considering also these arguments?
                              >>
                              >> Are you saying that Phlip is charging too little for his work? Are you
                              >> saying he should be charging for effort rather than progress?
                              >>
                              >> - George

                              --
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                              Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                              Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            • M. Manca
                              ... Because it is interesting to know how other engineers work and why and if their way may be applicable in some situations. There are a lot of solution to
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 16, 2014
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Il 16/02/2014 22:53, George Dinwiddie ha scritto:
                                >
                                >
                                > M.
                                >
                                > On 2/16/14, 3:54 PM, M. Manca wrote:
                                > > Il 16/02/2014 19:46, George Dinwiddie ha scritto:
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> M.
                                > >>
                                > >> Note that Phlip is describing what he does, not mandating it on others.
                                > >>
                                > >> Commits show him that he is actively working on the code. In a sense,
                                > >> it's like punching a timeclock. Whenever he commits new code, he
                                > assumes
                                > >> he's been working 0 to 15 minutes on the customer's behalf,
                                > depending on
                                > >> how recently was the previous commit. This way he doesn't have to
                                > >> manually track his time. He'd rather write code than track time.
                                > >>
                                > > I don't think he only writes source code and to track time there are
                                > > many efficient possibilities better then git commits.
                                >
                                > I doubt Phlip give a flying fig about efficiency in tracking time. He's
                                > found a way that works well enough for his needs.
                                >
                                > > I previously understood what you said, it doesn't help me to understand
                                > > why he decided to track time in this way.
                                >
                                > Ah, I thought you didn't understand it. Does it matter why?
                                >
                                > > There are a lot of questions that may arise:
                                > > 1. what is the difference if you commit every 15 minutes or every 10
                                > > minutes?
                                >
                                > It doesn't matter.
                                >
                                > > 2. Do you commit at specific frequency also if your source code doesn't
                                > > compile or doesn't pass unit tests?
                                >
                                > Of course he doesn't. Only on a green bar.
                                >
                                > > 3. What happens if you take a phone call?
                                >
                                > Then the client doesn't get charged for time if the next commit goes
                                > beyond 15 minutes.
                                >
                                > > These are just 3 examples I think I may have a lot of other simple
                                > > questions.
                                >
                                > You can ask an infinite number of simple questions. The point is that
                                > Phlip has found a way to track his billable work that seems fair to him
                                > and his clients. It works for him because he's disciplined about TDD.
                                >
                                > Why does his means of tracking billable time matter to you?
                                >
                                Because it is interesting to know how other engineers work and why and
                                if their way may be applicable in some situations.
                                There are a lot of solution to track and plan our work, personally I
                                like Pomodoro way but I would like it more if I could find a better
                                tracking tool.
                                >
                                >
                                > - George
                                >
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> On 2/16/14, 11:30 AM, M. Manca wrote:
                                > >>> Il 16/02/2014 16:46, Phlip ha scritto:
                                > >>>>
                                > >>>>
                                > >>>> I do it because it's a flat trace of the energy I put into a software
                                > >>>> project. Oh, and I can't commit if I can't pass the ...
                                > >>>>
                                > >>> I really can't understand your way. May be that in your particular
                                > >>> situation could be really a flat trace of your effort but speaking in
                                > >>> general terms I don't agree with you.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> To see that we really work we could show the differences among the
                                > >>> source code every day (I mean between morning and evening)
                                > obtaining the
                                > >>> same result. But I am convinced that it is not a good metric because
                                > >>> there are activities that can't be measured in SLOCs as documentation,
                                > >>> design, meetings, reading and learning, phone support or email support
                                > >>> and answering.
                                > >>
                                > >> I'm sure that Phlip minimizes the amount of time spent doing
                                > >> documentation, design, meetings, etc. And when he does these things, he
                                > >> does them in small increments. When he goes over the 15 minute
                                > threshold
                                > >> in overhead activities, he's doing it on his own nickel. That's an
                                > >> incentive to produce valuable software for the client, instead.
                                > >>
                                > >> For Phlip, the incentive is unlikely to be the reason he's driven to
                                > >> produce valuable software, but is an artifact of the fact that he is
                                > >> already prone to produce valuable software. His measurement
                                > technique is
                                > >> skewed by his sense of fairness to his client, not by a need to
                                > motivate
                                > >> or to maximize income.
                                > >>
                                > >>>
                                > >>> In my experience (more then 25 years) of sw design there isn't only
                                > >>> source code writing. I would say also that writing less SLOC
                                > should mean
                                > >>> more efficient code and application running faster. And these are
                                > only 2
                                > >>> simply examples, surely there are tons of other examples to show that
                                > >>> SLOCs and effort aren't directly related.
                                > >>
                                > >> Phlip isn't measuring SLOCs. He's measuring commits. Some of those
                                > might
                                > >> be refactoring, but I'd bet that most of them are making a new test
                                > >> pass. Therefore, measuring time by commits is a rough approximation to
                                > >> measuring time making forward progress for the client.
                                > >>
                                > >>>
                                > >>> How can you charge for your effort considering also these arguments?
                                > >>
                                > >> Are you saying that Phlip is charging too little for his work? Are you
                                > >> saying he should be charging for effort rather than progress?
                                > >>
                                > >> - George
                                >
                                > --
                                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                                > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                                > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > <http://www.avast.com/>
                                >
                                > Questa e-mail è priva di virus e malware perché è attiva la protezione
                                > avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/> .
                                >
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                                Tel: 39 0434 1856131| Mobile: 39 349 4504979
                                www.micronengineering.it

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                              • Phlip
                                ... I would also tack on a flat hourly rate for on-site, including hobnobbing, and a flat 8-hour-day if I have to do the commute-crunch-colab-commute thing.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Feb 16, 2014
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                                  George Dinwiddie escritario:

                                  > Note that Phlip is describing what he does, not mandating it on others.

                                  > I'm sure that Phlip minimizes the amount of time spent doing
                                  > documentation, design, meetings, etc. And when he does these things, he
                                  > does them in small increments. When he goes over the 15 minute threshold
                                  > in overhead activities, he's doing it on his own nickel. That's an
                                  > incentive to produce valuable software for the client, instead.

                                  I would also tack on a flat hourly rate for on-site, including
                                  hobnobbing, and a flat 8-hour-day if I have to do the
                                  commute-crunch-colab-commute thing. But yeah; the point of tracking
                                  effort is rewarding myself, like a slot machine, when the testage
                                  turns green.

                                  (BTW my shingle is out; http://zeroplayer.com/resume.html I don't vent
                                  like this at work; promise!)

                                  > For Phlip, the incentive is unlikely to be the reason he's driven to
                                  > produce valuable software, but is an artifact of the fact that he is
                                  > already prone to produce valuable software. His measurement technique is
                                  > skewed by his sense of fairness to his client, not by a need to motivate
                                  > or to maximize income.

                                  If I'm on a train, and think of the next line, I can whip out my
                                  traveling notebook and vet a new idea, and get naturally rewarded for
                                  it.

                                  > Phlip isn't measuring SLOCs. He's measuring commits. Some of those might
                                  > be refactoring, but I'd bet that most of them are making a new test
                                  > pass. Therefore, measuring time by commits is a rough approximation to
                                  > measuring time making forward progress for the client.

                                  The value of each commit is also flat. One could be a new (but
                                  extremely important) comment (the worst kind!) Or it could be a dozen
                                  of the simpler features if I'm simply clearing out the feature backlog
                                  before committing to a harder change request. Or it could be something
                                  that I researched all weekend, doing trial runs, reading crappy
                                  documentation, performing high-risk auditions on my more rickety
                                  hardware, burning up a ton of house electricity, just to commit 3
                                  pages of GIT-age that integrate a new library in the safest, cleanest
                                  way possible for exactly 15 minutes worth of charged time. Yeah, that
                                  kind of maximizing stakeholder value that I can bill for in as modest
                                  but honest way possible ...

                                  --
                                  Phlip
                                  http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand
                                • Phlip
                                  ... In my grade school days I had an undiagnosed learning disorder in terms of short term memory. If there s a way to leave keys in a car, I will spontaneously
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Feb 16, 2014
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 2:42 PM, M. Manca <m.manca@...> wrote:
                                    > Il 16/02/2014 22:53, George Dinwiddie ha scritto:
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> M.
                                    >>
                                    >> On 2/16/14, 3:54 PM, M. Manca wrote:
                                    >> > Il 16/02/2014 19:46, George Dinwiddie ha scritto:
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> M.
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> Note that Phlip is describing what he does, not mandating it on others.
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> Commits show him that he is actively working on the code. In a sense,
                                    >> >> it's like punching a timeclock. Whenever he commits new code, he
                                    >> assumes
                                    >> >> he's been working 0 to 15 minutes on the customer's behalf,
                                    >> depending on
                                    >> >> how recently was the previous commit. This way he doesn't have to
                                    >> >> manually track his time. He'd rather write code than track time.

                                    >> > 2. Do you commit at specific frequency also if your source code doesn't
                                    >> > compile or doesn't pass unit tests?
                                    >>
                                    >> Of course he doesn't. Only on a green bar.
                                    >>
                                    >> > 3. What happens if you take a phone call?
                                    >>
                                    >> Then the client doesn't get charged for time if the next commit goes
                                    >> beyond 15 minutes.
                                    >>
                                    >> > These are just 3 examples I think I may have a lot of other simple
                                    >> > questions.
                                    >>
                                    >> You can ask an infinite number of simple questions. The point is that
                                    >> Phlip has found a way to track his billable work that seems fair to him
                                    >> and his clients. It works for him because he's disciplined about TDD.

                                    > Because it is interesting to know how other engineers work and why and
                                    > if their way may be applicable in some situations.

                                    In my grade school days I had an undiagnosed learning disorder in
                                    terms of short term memory. If there's a way to leave keys in a car, I
                                    will spontaneously find it, all the while rigorously guarding against
                                    every way I ever done it before.

                                    XP & TDD are systems to deal with a cataract of risk. That's why the
                                    tiny bit I add by billing effort not wall-clock time is reliable, even
                                    when shockingly unfair to me.

                                    And I'd charge for a dumb phone call. They know I'm slamming. Changes
                                    to reviewable code should tell a story related to the current user
                                    story the client knows I'm working on. Even better if they run the
                                    build system, but like that'l ever happen ...

                                    > There are a lot of solution to track and plan our work, personally I
                                    > like Pomodoro way but I would like it more if I could find a better
                                    > tracking tool.

                                    I only work in a way that tracks real progress - reviewable changes to
                                    git. Running `git log -p`, you'd
                                  • Phlip
                                    ... I only work in a way that tracks real progress - reviewable changes to git. Running `git log -p`, you d see changes that relate to the current user story.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Feb 16, 2014
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      > There are a lot of solution to track and plan our work, personally I
                                      > like Pomodoro way but I would like it more if I could find a better
                                      > tracking tool.

                                      I only work in a way that tracks real progress - reviewable changes to
                                      git. Running `git log -p`, you'd see changes that relate to the
                                      current user story.

                                      That way, a change like "refactored the function to make its options
                                      into lambda callbacks" is just as on-topic as "finally added the
                                      actual link to the frob hardware."

                                      Even if I'm satisfying my Breaking Bad addiction, or walking a frisky
                                      Maltese toy dog, at the time ...

                                      --
                                      Phlip
                                      http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand
                                    • M. Manca
                                      Il 17/02/2014 00:19, Phlip ha scritto: Philip it is an interesting point of view and I would like to understand better. I understand that you like to show how
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Feb 17, 2014
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                                        Il 17/02/2014 00:19, Phlip ha scritto:
                                        Philip it is an interesting point of view and I would like to understand
                                        better.
                                        I understand that you like to show how your work is going on from the
                                        point of view of its business value.
                                        So you find comfortable to follow git commits.

                                        And if I understood well you fixed the polling time at 15 minutes.

                                        Basically it is surely a good idea, I would like to understand a little
                                        bit better what you do for example if you don't complete your piece of
                                        sw in 15 minutes (suppose your module required 1 hour to pass the unit
                                        tests). And I would like to understand if you commit your sw also if it
                                        doesn't work or what is your way to manage a piece of sw that is not
                                        working after your polling time.

                                        I would like if you may comment this list of facts that I normally use
                                        and if you think (for each of them) they may show that

                                        1. backlog of features to implement and kanban board to show their
                                        progress status. Each kanban has a field that represent the real working
                                        time on it (there are other fields as the initial estimation in terms of
                                        poker cards point or in terms of pomodoros).
                                        2. Commit to git only piece of sw that pass the acceptance test(s)
                                        corresponding to the features (or the user story)
                                        3. Commit to git not only source code but also documents when they reach
                                        a new step (may be a chapter or a milestone or a relevant part in terms
                                        of business value).


                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > There are a lot of solution to track and plan our work, personally I
                                        > > like Pomodoro way but I would like it more if I could find a better
                                        > > tracking tool.
                                        >
                                        > I only work in a way that tracks real progress - reviewable changes to
                                        > git. Running `git log -p`, you'd see changes that relate to the
                                        > current user story.
                                        >
                                        > That way, a change like "refactored the function to make its options
                                        > into lambda callbacks" is just as on-topic as "finally added the
                                        > actual link to the frob hardware."
                                        >
                                        > Even if I'm satisfying my Breaking Bad addiction, or walking a frisky
                                        > Maltese toy dog, at the time ...
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > Phlip
                                        > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                      • Leonardo Postacchini
                                        Man, that is a lean way to measure productivity, as far as you are paying your bills and is happy It is a system as good as any. I guess, as any system, you
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Feb 17, 2014
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                                          Man,

                                          that is a lean way to measure productivity, as far as you are paying your bills and is happy It is a system as good as any.

                                          I guess, as any system, you tune it by how much you charge the hour and with a beautiful CV as that one I guess you are not going famine.

                                          Best of luck finding your next git repo to commit to.




                                          On 17 February 2014 07:40, M. Manca <m.manca@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          Il 17/02/2014 00:19, Phlip ha scritto:
                                          Philip it is an interesting point of view and I would like to understand
                                          better.
                                          I understand that you like to show how your work is going on from the
                                          point of view of its business value.
                                          So you find comfortable to follow git commits.

                                          And if I understood well you fixed the polling time at 15 minutes.

                                          Basically it is surely a good idea, I would like to understand a little
                                          bit better what you do for example if you don't complete your piece of
                                          sw in 15 minutes (suppose your module required 1 hour to pass the unit
                                          tests). And I would like to understand if you commit your sw also if it
                                          doesn't work or what is your way to manage a piece of sw that is not
                                          working after your polling time.

                                          I would like if you may comment this list of facts that I normally use
                                          and if you think (for each of them) they may show that

                                          1. backlog of features to implement and kanban board to show their
                                          progress status. Each kanban has a field that represent the real working
                                          time on it (there are other fields as the initial estimation in terms of
                                          poker cards point or in terms of pomodoros).
                                          2. Commit to git only piece of sw that pass the acceptance test(s)
                                          corresponding to the features (or the user story)
                                          3. Commit to git not only source code but also documents when they reach
                                          a new step (may be a chapter or a milestone or a relevant part in terms
                                          of business value).



                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > There are a lot of solution to track and plan our work, personally I
                                          > > like Pomodoro way but I would like it more if I could find a better
                                          > > tracking tool.
                                          >
                                          > I only work in a way that tracks real progress - reviewable changes to
                                          > git. Running `git log -p`, you'd see changes that relate to the
                                          > current user story.
                                          >
                                          > That way, a change like "refactored the function to make its options
                                          > into lambda callbacks" is just as on-topic as "finally added the
                                          > actual link to the frob hardware."
                                          >
                                          > Even if I'm satisfying my Breaking Bad addiction, or walking a frisky
                                          > Maltese toy dog, at the time ...
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > Phlip
                                          > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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