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Misunderstanding and re-writing the manifesto

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  • Kay
    Since I ve been a member of this list since 2002 û I ve seen and heard a lot of lies and misunderstandings about what XP (and Agile IS. I just overheard
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 28, 2013
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      Since I've been a member of this list since 2002 – I've seen and heard a lot of "lies" and misunderstandings about what XP (and "Agile" IS. I just overheard a webinar where the speaker implied that the manifesto said a'tools and processes were NOT important-- the speaker said "WE (the contracting company) think tools and processes are *VERY* important" AAAGGGGHHHHH! They ALSO said "we Will still be doing requirements, but we will CALL them "user stories" OMG "Agile" is truly dead….
      I plan to cry a lot tonight.

      Kay Pentecost
    • Ron Jeffries
      Kay, ... There are always jerks and liars. I m curious who this one was ... Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com There s no word for accountability in Finnish.
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 28, 2013
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        Kay,

        On Aug 28, 2013, at 12:22 PM, "Kay" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:

        > Since I've been a member of this list since 2002 � I've seen and heard a lot of "lies" and misunderstandings about what XP (and "Agile" IS. I just overheard a webinar where the speaker implied that the manifesto said a'tools and processes were NOT important-- the speaker said "WE (the contracting company) think tools and processes are *VERY* important" AAAGGGGHHHHH! They ALSO said "we Will still be doing requirements, but we will CALL them "user stories" OMG "Agile" is truly dead�.
        > I plan to cry a lot tonight.


        There are always jerks and liars. I'm curious who this one was ...

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        There's no word for accountability in Finnish.
        Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted.
        --Pasi Sahlberg



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kay
        Hey Ron, This one was no one. Just a manager at at consulting company. When i first started workin here at this command and control culture, *everyone* said
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 28, 2013
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          Hey Ron,
          This one was no one. Just a manager at at consulting company.

          When i first started workin here at this command and control culture, *everyone* said "Agile won't work here." Then the top brass said "you WILL do agile. NOW *everyone* thinks we're agile. They "think" what they are told to "think" .

          KAY

          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
          >
          > Kay,
          >
          > On Aug 28, 2013, at 12:22 PM, "Kay" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Since I've been a member of this list since 2002 – I've seen and heard a lot of "lies" and misunderstandings about what XP (and "Agile" IS. I just overheard a webinar where the speaker implied that the manifesto said a'tools and processes were NOT important-- the speaker said "WE (the contracting company) think tools and processes are *VERY* important" AAAGGGGHHHHH! They ALSO said "we Will still be doing requirements, but we will CALL them "user stories" OMG "Agile" is truly dead….
          > > I plan to cry a lot tonight.
          >
          >
          > There are always jerks and liars. I'm curious who this one was ...
          >
          > Ron Jeffries
          > www.XProgramming.com
          > There's no word for accountability in Finnish.
          > Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted.
          > --Pasi Sahlberg
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Ron Jeffries
          Clowns to the left of me, jokers to my right à ... Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com I know we always like to say it ll be easier to do it now than it will be
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 28, 2013
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            Clowns to the left of me, jokers to my right �

            On Aug 28, 2013, at 12:32 PM, "Kay" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:

            > When i first started workin here at this command and control culture, *everyone* said "Agile won't work here." Then the top brass said "you WILL do agile. NOW *everyone* thinks we're agile. They "think" what they are told to "think" .


            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
            will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
            I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
            Why pay now when we can pay later?



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dossy Shiobara
            Just think: in 400 years, when folks are mercilessly editing the Gospels of Ron, Kent, Ward and Chet, or the Letters to the Programmers ... what we know as XP
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 28, 2013
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              Just think: in 400 years, when folks are mercilessly editing the Gospels
              of Ron, Kent, Ward and Chet, or the Letters to the Programmers ... what
              we know as XP today may very well be entirely unrecognizable.

              Look at Jesus ... you already know how his methodology turned out ...


              On 8/28/13 12:22 PM, Kay wrote:
              > Since I've been a member of this list since 2002 -- I've seen and heard a lot of "lies" and misunderstandings about what XP (and "Agile" IS. I just overheard a webinar where the speaker implied that the manifesto said a'tools and processes were NOT important-- the speaker said "WE (the contracting company) think tools and processes are *VERY* important" AAAGGGGHHHHH! They ALSO said "we Will still be doing requirements, but we will CALL them "user stories" OMG "Agile" is truly dead....
              > I plan to cry a lot tonight.

              --
              Dossy Shiobara | "He realized the fastest way to change
              dossy@... | is to laugh at your own folly -- then you
              http://panoptic.com/ | can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
              * WordPress * jQuery * MySQL * Security * Business Continuity *



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Carter
              Sigh! I have seen you on these lists since those early days of promise... Those whom the gods truly hate.... they first grant everything they ever wished
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 1, 2013
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                Sigh! I have seen you on these lists since those early days of promise...

                Those whom the gods truly hate.... they first grant everything they ever
                wished for....

                Agile has won!

                Agile is everywhere!

                Scrum is a prerequisite in every job ad for every company.

                Except it is all horribly twisted and distorted.

                Somehow Agile means more meetings and process and documentation than we
                ever had in 30 years of Software Industry fads and buzzwords.

                Somehow Agile means change is good... but the practices that enable change
                to be done easily and safely are orders of magnitude less important than
                meeting made up sprint commitments.

                Sigh... If I had a penny for every war story of Agile gone rabid weird I
                have heard from various corners of the industry... I'd be as rich as a
                consultant.



                On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 4:22 AM, Kay <tranzpupy@...> wrote:

                > Since I've been a member of this list since 2002 – I've seen and heard a
                > lot of "lies" and misunderstandings about what XP (and "Agile" IS. I just
                > overheard a webinar where the speaker implied that the manifesto said
                > a'tools and processes were NOT important-- the speaker said "WE (the
                > contracting company) think tools and processes are *VERY* important"
                > AAAGGGGHHHHH! They ALSO said "we Will still be doing requirements, but we
                > will CALL them "user stories" OMG "Agile" is truly dead….
                > I plan to cry a lot tonight.
                >
                > Kay Pentecost
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
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                --
                John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
                Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
                PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ron Jeffries
                John, ... That last part was really funny! Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com I know we always like to say it ll be easier to do it now than it will be to do it
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 2, 2013
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                  John,

                  On Sep 1, 2013, at 11:16 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:

                  > Sigh... If I had a penny for every war story of Agile gone rabid weird I
                  > have heard from various corners of the industry... I'd be as rich as a
                  > consultant.


                  That last part was really funny!

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
                  will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
                  I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
                  Why pay now when we can pay later?



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Francis Fish
                  ... Lots of places do what I call the agile waterfall . They have Business Analysts who distill (i.e. lose at least 30%) of the business knowledge from the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 2, 2013
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                    On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 5:22 PM, Kay <tranzpupy@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Since I've been a member of this list since 2002 � I've seen and heard a
                    > lot of "lies" and misunderstandings about what XP (and "Agile" IS. I just
                    > overheard a webinar where the speaker implied that the manifesto said
                    > a'tools and processes were NOT important-- the speaker said "WE (the
                    > contracting company) think tools and processes are *VERY* important"
                    > AAAGGGGHHHHH! They ALSO said "we Will still be doing requirements, but we
                    > will CALL them "user stories" OMG "Agile" is truly dead�.
                    > I plan to cry a lot tonight.
                    >
                    > Kay Pentecost
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    Lots of places do what I call the "agile waterfall". They have Business
                    Analysts who distill (i.e. lose at least 30%) of the business knowledge
                    from the stakeholder. Then there's lots of rework rediscovering the 30% and
                    the stakeholder is not involved properly.

                    You have the outer forms, e.g. stand up meetings, the board, planning poker
                    etc. but the heart of all of this is putting communication with the
                    business at the top of the agenda - and the business are "too busy" and the
                    analyst isn't putting a lot of detail in the stories - so you get a
                    waterfall with shorter iterations by any other name.

                    Agile is a state of mind and the labels don't matter, but you get this
                    thing where people "unpack the box" and think it changes their thinking.
                    Nope. I wish it did. Changing thinking requires a kind of commitment and
                    honesty that is hard to find. It also requires the retrospectives to mean
                    something, and the team and business to work together on what Deming called
                    the common purpose. This is hard when people think in budgets and gantt
                    charts, it's *really* hard when you need (say) some kind of uptick in
                    productivity and you're just expected to *do it* - if you could have you
                    would have.

                    --
                    Thanks and Regards,

                    Francis

                    07764 225 942

                    "So when targets seem stupid, arbitrary and unfair it's because they *are*.
                    The only way to improve is to look at the whole system people are operating
                    with, the basic tools, their training, how much initiative they are
                    allowed, are you measuring the right things (more about that later) and
                    then you can improve. But it's the *system* you improve, not the people you
                    beat into performing even worse." Unicorns in the
                    mist<https://leanpub.com/unicorns>

                    CV http://www.pharmarketeer.com/francis.html

                    FJFDIDM Consultancy <http://fjfdidm.com/>


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Steve Berczuk
                    ... What always fascinated me about this dynamic is why people feel a need to call what they are doing agile. Why not instead say I read something about
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 7, 2013
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                      On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Kay <tranzpupy@...> wrote:
                      > Since I've been a member of this list since 2002 – I've seen and heard a lot of "lies" and misunderstandings about what XP (and "Agile" IS. I just overheard a webinar where the speaker implied that the manifesto said a'tools and processes were NOT important-- the speaker said "WE (the contracting company) think tools and processes are *VERY* important" AAAGGGGHHHHH! They ALSO said "we Will still be doing requirements, but we will CALL them "user stories" OMG "Agile" is truly dead….
                      > I plan to cry a lot tonight.


                      What always fascinated me about this dynamic is why people feel a need
                      to call what they are doing "agile." Why not instead say " I read
                      something about Agile, I don't want to do that, but maybe I'll borrow
                      some ideas.." Borrowing some ideas won't really work well as the
                      practices interact... but at least it is honest...

                      The other day I was on the T (which is the name we Boston area
                      residents use for "the Subway" :) ) and I over heard 2 people talking
                      about "how 'Steve' [another steve, not me] is getting all agile on
                      us..." and "how agile says <something agile doesn't actually say>" and
                      "how that just /can't/ work for our situation."
                      The confidence with which the person said the last bit is probably
                      the core problem.

                      Steve
                      --
                      Steve Berczuk | steve.berczuk@... | http://www.berczuk.com
                      Twitter: @sberczuk
                      ADN: @spb
                      SCM Patterns: www.scmpatterns.com
                    • Larry Brunelle
                      ... When I see such posts, I m reminded of the one-time currency of TQM and Deming methods. These ideas worked fabulously well for Japanese manufacturing
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 7, 2013
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                        Steve Berczuk wrote:> On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Kay <tranzpupy@...> wrote:
                        >> Since I've been a member of this list since 2002 – I've seen and heard a lot of "lies" and misunderstandings about what XP (and "Agile" IS. I just overheard a webinar where the speaker implied that the manifesto said a'tools and processes were NOT important-- the speaker said "WE (the contracting company) think tools and processes are *VERY* important" AAAGGGGHHHHH! They ALSO said "we Will still be doing requirements, but we will CALL them "user stories" OMG "Agile" is truly dead….
                        >> I plan to cry a lot tonight.
                        >
                        >
                        > What always fascinated me about this dynamic is why people feel a need
                        > to call what they are doing "agile." Why not instead say " I read
                        > something about Agile, I don't want to do that, but maybe I'll borrow
                        > some ideas.." Borrowing some ideas won't really work well as the
                        > practices interact... but at least it is honest...
                        >
                        > The other day I was on the T (which is the name we Boston area
                        > residents use for "the Subway" :) ) and I over heard 2 people talking
                        > about "how 'Steve' [another steve, not me] is getting all agile on
                        > us..." and "how agile says <something agile doesn't actually say>" and
                        > "how that just /can't/ work for our situation."
                        > The confidence with which the person said the last bit is probably
                        > the core problem.
                        >
                        > Steve
                        >

                        When I see such posts, I'm reminded of the one-time currency
                        of TQM and Deming methods. These ideas worked fabulously
                        well for Japanese manufacturing concerns, for the simple
                        reason they actually paid attention and actually implemented
                        the methods "by the book". They believed and followed through.

                        American firms, by contrast, rarely paid as close attention,
                        and rarely followed throughso faithfully. Indeed, when once
                        I signed up for a grad school course in TQM while being
                        retreaded at the University of Michigan, I found that the
                        instructor taught with an expectation that the structure to
                        be found in industry would include something like a "quality
                        department" where would perhaps be a head TQM guy to whom
                        members of the firm would be responsible for TQM issues.
                        This would, it appears to me, be entirely contrary to Deming's
                        teaching that the CEO was the head TQM guy, that the change
                        had to be believed in at the top and supported from the top.
                        (And now Toyota has, what is it? the best selling model in
                        the US?)

                        "Agile", whichever species, has to be understood, believed in,
                        and supported from the top to have the best traction (or even
                        any at all) in the organization. What I observe is that it's
                        common to believe in something BELIEVED to be "agile", especially
                        if there's no requirement for executives to do the homework
                        to understand what's meant.

                        <Mild rant>
                        Corporate America has in many quarters (certainly not all)
                        exhibited a belief that "management" is an abstract discipline
                        not necessarily requiring actual understanding of the business
                        managed. Generally this disease seems to appear in higher-
                        level executives who can negotiate one kind or another of
                        golden parachute, and may seep down through the ranks. Small-
                        business owners generally can't afford this luxury of non-
                        understanding: if the business fails, they suffer.

                        Of course, sometimes the sailors keep the ship afloat even
                        with officers of questionable judgment.
                        </Mild rant>
                      • marcodorantes
                        All these years, learning a lot from communities like this, from authors and practitioners, from my own tries to improve the quality of my software design and
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 1, 2013
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                          All these years, learning a lot from communities like this, from authors and practitioners, from my own tries to improve the quality of my software design and programming, and telling others about all this good stuff of software development as a cooperative game, and still there are lots of programmers around who simply do not care enough to not just repeat the buzzwords but to behave like if they properly understood the concepts.

                           

                          All this make me remember what have happened with other intellectual pursuits in history. For example, very few people around me, even with several academic computing degrees, are able to articulate, in simple terms, the most general justified true beliefs from quantum theory, much less its relationship with the current computing industry. Whereas those justified true beliefs were published almost a century ago! 



                          ---In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, <brunelle@...> wrote:

                          Steve Berczuk wrote:> On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Kay <tranzpupy@...> wrote:
                          >> Since I've been a member of this list since 2002 – I've seen and heard a lot of "lies" and misunderstandings about what XP (and "Agile" IS. I just overheard a webinar where the speaker implied that the manifesto said a'tools and processes were NOT important-- the speaker said "WE (the contracting company) think tools and processes are *VERY* important" AAAGGGGHHHHH! They ALSO said "we Will still be doing requirements, but we will CALL them "user stories" OMG "Agile" is truly dead….
                          >> I plan to cry a lot tonight.
                          >
                          >
                          > What always fascinated me about this dynamic is why people feel a need
                          > to call what they are doing "agile." Why not instead say " I read
                          > something about Agile, I don't want to do that, but maybe I'll borrow
                          > some ideas.." Borrowing some ideas won't really work well as the
                          > practices interact... but at least it is honest...
                          >
                          > The other day I was on the T (which is the name we Boston area
                          > residents use for "the Subway" :) ) and I over heard 2 people talking
                          > about "how 'Steve' [another steve, not me] is getting all agile on
                          > us..." and "how agile says <something agile doesn't actually say>" and
                          > "how that just /can't/ work for our situation."
                          > The confidence with which the person said the last bit is probably
                          > the core problem.
                          >
                          > Steve
                          >

                          When I see such posts, I'm reminded of the one-time currency
                          of TQM and Deming methods. These ideas worked fabulously
                          well for Japanese manufacturing concerns, for the simple
                          reason they actually paid attention and actually implemented
                          the methods "by the book". They believed and followed through.

                          American firms, by contrast, rarely paid as close attention,
                          and rarely followed throughso faithfully. Indeed, when once
                          I signed up for a grad school course in TQM while being
                          retreaded at the University of Michigan, I found that the
                          instructor taught with an expectation that the structure to
                          be found in industry would include something like a "quality
                          department" where would perhaps be a head TQM guy to whom
                          members of the firm would be responsible for TQM issues.
                          This would, it appears to me, be entirely contrary to Deming's
                          teaching that the CEO was the head TQM guy, that the change
                          had to be believed in at the top and supported from the top.
                          (And now Toyota has, what is it? the best selling model in
                          the US?)

                          "Agile", whichever species, has to be understood, believed in,
                          and supported from the top to have the best traction (or even
                          any at all) in the organization. What I observe is that it's
                          common to believe in something BELIEVED to be "agile", especially
                          if there's no requirement for executives to do the homework
                          to understand what's meant.

                          <Mild rant>
                          Corporate America has in many quarters (certainly not all)
                          exhibited a belief that "management" is an abstract discipline
                          not necessarily requiring actual understanding of the business
                          managed. Generally this disease seems to appear in higher-
                          level executives who can negotiate one kind or another of
                          golden parachute, and may seep down through the ranks. Small-
                          business owners generally can't afford this luxury of non-
                          understanding: if the business fails, they suffer.

                          Of course, sometimes the sailors keep the ship afloat even
                          with officers of questionable judgment.
                          </Mild rant>
                        • Phlip
                          ... Pivotal Labs, in downtown San Francisco, is a lean mean pair-programming machine, using RoR and RSpec test suites that might actually remain fast &
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 1, 2013
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                            > I plan to cry a lot tonight.
                            >
                            > Kay Pentecost

                            Pivotal Labs, in downtown San Francisco, is a lean mean
                            pair-programming machine, using RoR and RSpec test suites that might
                            actually remain fast & efficient. Do they count?
                          • Adam Sroka
                            I have been a consultant for a long time. There are plenty of good people doing really good things and plenty of people doing mediocre things for a whole lot
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 1, 2013
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                              I have been a consultant for a long time. There are plenty of good people doing really good things and plenty of people doing mediocre things for a whole lot of reasons, most understandable, many silly. Cry if you need to, but don't take it personally. Find some small way that you can make the world a better place and do a little bit of that every day. 


                              On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:
                               

                              > I plan to cry a lot tonight.
                              >
                              > Kay Pentecost

                              Pivotal Labs, in downtown San Francisco, is a lean mean
                              pair-programming machine, using RoR and RSpec test suites that might
                              actually remain fast & efficient. Do they count?


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