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Re: [XP] Rise & Fall of Design Patterns:Lessons to learn?

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  • Filipe Correia
    Hello Agustin and all, You may want to check out this (fairly recent) initiative to document Scrum as a pattern language:
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 23, 2013
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      Hello Agustin and all,

      You may want to check out this (fairly recent) initiative to document Scrum
      as a pattern language:
      https://sites.google.com/a/scrumplop.org/published-patterns/home

      Cheers,
      Filipe


      On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Agustin Villena
      <agustin.villena@...>wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Hi Steven
      >
      > Good link!
      > My question is about the root cause that explain why this approaches didn't
      > get traction.
      >
      > The current ways to document agile methods (e.g. The Scrum Guide) IMHO
      > leads to cargo cult, since they hide the context where the practices are
      > appropriate.
      >
      > If design patterns don't work, we need a similar way.
      >
      > Best Regards
      > Agust�n
      > El jul 22, 2013 1:37 AM, "Steven Gordon" <sgordonphd@...> escribi�:
      >
      >
      > > A really good example of a pattern-based approach to agile practices can
      > be
      > > found at
      > http://www.aptprocess.com/whitepapers/risk/RiskToPatternTable.htm
      > >
      > > However, that fact that it is oldish and never gained much favor or
      > > visibility (as far as I know) does support your implication that the
      > > patterns movement has fallen out of favor.
      > >
      > > SteveG
      > >
      > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Agustin Villena
      > > <agustin.villena@...>wrote:
      > >
      > > > **
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hi all!
      > > >
      > > > Design Patterns was one of the great sources of XP in its origins, and
      > > > therefore of the agile movement, and I still found that creating Design
      > > > Patterns is a very good form of organizing knowledge, and I�m looking
      > for
      > > > an approach to document agile practices as method patterns,
      > > >
      > > > My questions are.
      > > > - Which are the great lessons from the Rise & fall of the Design
      > patterns
      > > > movement?
      > > >
      > > > Thanks
      > > > Agustin Villena
      > > > @agustinvillena
      > > >
      > > > PD: I�m aware that DP is not really dead, and, following the technology
      > > > hype cycle curve maybe it have its time of hype and now is on the
      > plateau
      > > > of productivity, but in IMHO DP are less important now that they
      > deserve.
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      > >
      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
      > >
      > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Filipe Correia
      I would consider it indicative that the patterns community is still very active in documenting agile practices! :-) The design patterns buzzword might not be
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 23, 2013
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        I would consider it indicative that the patterns community is still
        very active in documenting agile practices! :-)

        The "design patterns" buzzword might not be as hyped as it once was,
        but more patterns are being documented every year. Some explicitly as
        such (see the xPLoP conferences --- PLoP, EuroPLoP, AsianPLoP,
        VikingPLoP, SugarLoafPLoP, etc), others not as explicitly but still
        very successfully (books like "Domain-Driven Design" make extensive
        use of patterns).

        So, coming back to your question, I wouldn't say design patterns have
        "fallen". They just entered the mainstream.

        Filipe


        On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Agustin Villena
        <agustin.villena@...> wrote:
        > Good resource
        >
        > Thanks!
        >
        >
        > Agustin
        >
        >
        > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Filipe Correia <fcorreia@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Hello Agustin and all,
        >>
        >> You may want to check out this (fairly recent) initiative to document
        >> Scrum
        >> as a pattern language:
        >> https://sites.google.com/a/scrumplop.org/published-patterns/home
        >>
        >> Cheers,
        >> Filipe
        >>
        >>
        >> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Agustin Villena
        >> <agustin.villena@...>wrote:
        >>
        >> > **
        >>
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > Hi Steven
        >> >
        >> > Good link!
        >> > My question is about the root cause that explain why this approaches
        >> > didn't
        >> > get traction.
        >> >
        >> > The current ways to document agile methods (e.g. The Scrum Guide) IMHO
        >> > leads to cargo cult, since they hide the context where the practices are
        >> > appropriate.
        >> >
        >> > If design patterns don't work, we need a similar way.
        >> >
        >> > Best Regards
        >> > Agustín
        >> > El jul 22, 2013 1:37 AM, "Steven Gordon" <sgordonphd@...>
        >> > escribió:
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > > A really good example of a pattern-based approach to agile practices
        >> > > can
        >> > be
        >> > > found at
        >> > http://www.aptprocess.com/whitepapers/risk/RiskToPatternTable.htm
        >> > >
        >> > > However, that fact that it is oldish and never gained much favor or
        >> > > visibility (as far as I know) does support your implication that the
        >> > > patterns movement has fallen out of favor.
        >> > >
        >> > > SteveG
        >> > >
        >> > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Agustin Villena
        >> > > <agustin.villena@...>wrote:
        >> > >
        >> > > > **
        >> > > >
        >> > > >
        >> > > > Hi all!
        >> > > >
        >> > > > Design Patterns was one of the great sources of XP in its origins,
        >> > > > and
        >> > > > therefore of the agile movement, and I still found that creating
        >> > > > Design
        >> > > > Patterns is a very good form of organizing knowledge, and I´m
        >> > > > looking
        >> > for
        >> > > > an approach to document agile practices as method patterns,
        >> > > >
        >> > > > My questions are.
        >> > > > - Which are the great lessons from the Rise & fall of the Design
        >> > patterns
        >> > > > movement?
        >> > > >
        >> > > > Thanks
        >> > > > Agustin Villena
        >> > > > @agustinvillena
        >> > > >
        >> > > > PD: I´m aware that DP is not really dead, and, following the
        >> > > > technology
        >> > > > hype cycle curve maybe it have its time of hype and now is on the
        >> > plateau
        >> > > > of productivity, but in IMHO DP are less important now that they
        >> > deserve.
        >> > > >
        >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >> > > >
        >> > > >
        >> > > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > > ------------------------------------
        >> > >
        >> > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >> > >
        >> > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        >> > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >> > >
        >> > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> >
        >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------
        >>
        >> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >>
        >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        >> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >>
        >> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
      • Sean Corfield
        ... Indeed. If you work primarily in FP languages, rather than OOP languages, several of those patterns are either built into the language or are simply
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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          On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
          > The original GoF patterns are useful to learn, even though many of them are
          > solving limitations in the language rather than actual problems in the
          > domain of your product.

          Indeed. If you work primarily in FP languages, rather than OOP
          languages, several of those "patterns" are either built into the
          language or are simply irrelevant. A few of them apply as-is, some
          apply in a different form.

          I remember when the GoF book came out and it was quite revolutionary
          at the time ('94, as I recall?) - the OOP world was evolving very
          rapidly back then (late 80's thru mid-90's) and there were a lot of
          exciting things happening, interesting conferences and technical
          papers, ground-breaking books, etc. In the decades since, that's all
          become just part of the accepted canon of OOP wisdom and we talk about
          it a lot less.

          As we see the resurgence of FP, it will be interesting to see if we
          get a similar spike of excitement and new material. I suspect we won't
          because FP has been around for so long in the background, although we
          are seeing interesting conferences focusing on FP (The Strange Loop is
          fairly heavily FP-focused, Lambda Jam recently was a great FP-focused
          cross-language event). We have a whole generation of OOP developers
          who will have to unlearn a lot of "bad habits" and learn a whole new
          way of thinking - ironically the previous generation take to FP more
          easily, in my experience, because they knew other styles of
          programming before OOP!

          After the initial fuss around Design Patterns died down, the Patterns
          community moved on to codify and categorize patterns in process in a
          (mostly) technology-neutral way and that seems to be an area that
          never got as much interest from the broader software development
          community as it deserved. Nice to see some mention of that aspect of
          patterns in this thread.
          --
          Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
          An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
          World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/

          "Perfection is the enemy of the good."
          -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
        • Agustin Villena
          Thank you all for the great feedback Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair point), but that was not my point. My real
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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            Thank you all for the great feedback

            Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair
            point), but that was not my point.

            My real question is:

            If we want to use Patterns to document and communicate Agile Practices,
            which pitfalls of the early Design Patterns movement we should avoid? (for
            the goal of being really relevant for agile practitioners)

            Saludos
            Agustín
            El jul 21, 2013 9:50 PM, "Agustin Villena" <agustin.villena@...>
            escribió:

            > Hi all!
            >
            > Design Patterns was one of the great sources of XP in its origins, and
            > therefore of the agile movement, and I still found that creating Design
            > Patterns is a very good form of organizing knowledge, and I´m looking for
            > an approach to document agile practices as method patterns,
            >
            > My questions are.
            > - Which are the great lessons from the Rise & fall of the Design patterns
            > movement?
            >
            > Thanks
            > Agustin Villena
            > @agustinvillena
            >
            > PD: I´m aware that DP is not really dead, and, following the technology
            > hype cycle curve maybe it have its time of hype and now is on the plateau
            > of productivity, but in IMHO DP are less important now that they deserve.
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Steven Gordon
            The biggest pitfall would be presenting it primarily to pattern mavens at pattern conferences. For such an effort to be successful, the primary audience must
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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              The biggest pitfall would be presenting it primarily to pattern mavens at
              pattern conferences.

              For such an effort to be successful, the primary audience must be active
              Agile practitioners (e.g., coaches, scrum masters, agile PMOs, ...) and the
              primary utility should be that it makes them more effective, not that it
              leverages patterns.

              Do not emphasize the pattern formalisms, at least until after some
              successes.

              SteveG

              On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Agustin Villena <agustin.villena@...
              > wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Thank you all for the great feedback
              >
              > Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair
              > point), but that was not my point.
              >
              > My real question is:
              >
              > If we want to use Patterns to document and communicate Agile Practices,
              > which pitfalls of the early Design Patterns movement we should avoid? (for
              > the goal of being really relevant for agile practitioners)
              >
              > Saludos
              > Agust�n
              > El jul 21, 2013 9:50 PM, "Agustin Villena" <agustin.villena@...>
              > escribi�:
              >
              > > Hi all!
              > >
              > > Design Patterns was one of the great sources of XP in its origins, and
              > > therefore of the agile movement, and I still found that creating Design
              > > Patterns is a very good form of organizing knowledge, and I�m looking for
              > > an approach to document agile practices as method patterns,
              > >
              > > My questions are.
              > > - Which are the great lessons from the Rise & fall of the Design patterns
              > > movement?
              > >
              > > Thanks
              > > Agustin Villena
              > > @agustinvillena
              > >
              > > PD: I�m aware that DP is not really dead, and, following the technology
              > > hype cycle curve maybe it have its time of hype and now is on the plateau
              > > of productivity, but in IMHO DP are less important now that they deserve.
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Agustin Villena
              Steve Good points! Thanks Agustín ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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                Steve
                Good points!
                Thanks
                Agustín
                El jul 24, 2013 3:06 PM, "Steven Gordon" <sgordonphd@...> escribió:

                > The biggest pitfall would be presenting it primarily to pattern mavens at
                > pattern conferences.
                >
                > For such an effort to be successful, the primary audience must be active
                > Agile practitioners (e.g., coaches, scrum masters, agile PMOs, ...) and the
                > primary utility should be that it makes them more effective, not that it
                > leverages patterns.
                >
                > Do not emphasize the pattern formalisms, at least until after some
                > successes.
                >
                > SteveG
                >
                > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Agustin Villena <
                > agustin.villena@...
                > > wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > Thank you all for the great feedback
                > >
                > > Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair
                > > point), but that was not my point.
                > >
                > > My real question is:
                > >
                > > If we want to use Patterns to document and communicate Agile Practices,
                > > which pitfalls of the early Design Patterns movement we should avoid?
                > (for
                > > the goal of being really relevant for agile practitioners)
                > >
                > > Saludos
                > > Agustín
                > > El jul 21, 2013 9:50 PM, "Agustin Villena" <agustin.villena@...>
                > > escribió:
                > >
                > > > Hi all!
                > > >
                > > > Design Patterns was one of the great sources of XP in its origins, and
                > > > therefore of the agile movement, and I still found that creating Design
                > > > Patterns is a very good form of organizing knowledge, and I´m looking
                > for
                > > > an approach to document agile practices as method patterns,
                > > >
                > > > My questions are.
                > > > - Which are the great lessons from the Rise & fall of the Design
                > patterns
                > > > movement?
                > > >
                > > > Thanks
                > > > Agustin Villena
                > > > @agustinvillena
                > > >
                > > > PD: I´m aware that DP is not really dead, and, following the technology
                > > > hype cycle curve maybe it have its time of hype and now is on the
                > plateau
                > > > of productivity, but in IMHO DP are less important now that they
                > deserve.
                > > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                >
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                >
                > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • George Dinwiddie
                Agustín, ... I would be careful to make it clear that the patterns are not recipes, and not universally good, but responses to a context. And I would
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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                  Agustín,

                  On 7/24/13 2:53 PM, Agustin Villena wrote:
                  > Thank you all for the great feedback
                  >
                  > Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair
                  > point), but that was not my point.
                  >
                  > My real question is:
                  >
                  > If we want to use Patterns to document and communicate Agile Practices,
                  > which pitfalls of the early Design Patterns movement we should avoid? (for
                  > the goal of being really relevant for agile practitioners)

                  I would be careful to make it clear that the patterns are not recipes,
                  and not "universally good," but responses to a context. And I would
                  illustrate each pattern in several contexts to show variations. Tell the
                  story, not just the skeleton of the pattern.

                  - George

                  --
                  Want to speak at AgileDC October 8, 2013? http://agiledc.org/speak/
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                  Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                  Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                • Agustin Villena
                  Thanks George! Saludos Agustín El jul 24, 2013 9:44 PM, George Dinwiddie ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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                    Thanks George!

                    Saludos
                    Agust�n
                    El jul 24, 2013 9:44 PM, "George Dinwiddie" <lists@...>
                    escribi�:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Agust�n,
                    >
                    > On 7/24/13 2:53 PM, Agustin Villena wrote:
                    > > Thank you all for the great feedback
                    > >
                    > > Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair
                    > > point), but that was not my point.
                    > >
                    > > My real question is:
                    > >
                    > > If we want to use Patterns to document and communicate Agile Practices,
                    > > which pitfalls of the early Design Patterns movement we should avoid?
                    > (for
                    > > the goal of being really relevant for agile practitioners)
                    >
                    > I would be careful to make it clear that the patterns are not recipes,
                    > and not "universally good," but responses to a context. And I would
                    > illustrate each pattern in several contexts to show variations. Tell the
                    > story, not just the skeleton of the pattern.
                    >
                    > - George
                    >
                    > --
                    > Want to speak at AgileDC October 8, 2013? http://agiledc.org/speak/
                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                    > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                    > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                    > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    >


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