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Re: [XP] Examples of good acceptance test criteria

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  • Adam Sroka
    ... Sure, as long as the BAs and/or testers are part of a whole team and not a distinct group that is physically separate. It is possible to teach testers to
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 23, 2013
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      On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...>wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:55 AM, George Dinwiddie
      > > <lists@...>wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > > If the Customer is not involved, that's a different problem. Getting
      > the
      > > > Customer involved may take more than just a BDD/ATDD tool. ;-)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > Absolutely, and regardless of whether I am using Cucumber or not I am not
      > > going to take money from a customer who isn't willing to be engaged in
      > the
      > > development of their product. Some customers need their hands held just
      > to
      > > write stories, others are willing to learn and maintain Gherkin, and
      > there
      > > are several levels in between.
      > >
      > >
      > And there are many customers who will delegate the details of writing and
      > maintaining Gherkin to non-programmer intermediaries like BAs or Testers.
      > As long as the customer and those intermediaries are active participants in
      > the project, especially in the conversation about each story, that can work
      > fine. Leveraging a language that non-programmers can read helps align
      > everybody's understanding.
      >
      >
      Sure, as long as the BAs and/or testers are part of a whole team and not a
      distinct group that is physically separate.

      It is possible to teach testers to write and maintain Gherkin. I have done
      it. It is also possible to train BAs to act as effective customer proxies.
      Neither is as good as the active participation of an actual onsite
      customer, though.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Adam Sroka
      P.S. and, as you suggest, if both the BA/tester and the customer are active participants then that is even better, because BAs and testers bring skills to
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 23, 2013
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        P.S. and, as you suggest, if both the BA/tester and the customer are active
        participants then that is even better, because BAs and testers bring skills
        to writing the Gherkin that the customer may not have


        On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...>wrote:
        >
        >> **
        >>
        >>
        >> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:55 AM, George Dinwiddie
        >> > <lists@...>wrote:
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >> > > If the Customer is not involved, that's a different problem. Getting
        >> the
        >> > > Customer involved may take more than just a BDD/ATDD tool. ;-)
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > Absolutely, and regardless of whether I am using Cucumber or not I am
        >> not
        >> > going to take money from a customer who isn't willing to be engaged in
        >> the
        >> > development of their product. Some customers need their hands held just
        >> to
        >> > write stories, others are willing to learn and maintain Gherkin, and
        >> there
        >> > are several levels in between.
        >> >
        >> >
        >> And there are many customers who will delegate the details of writing and
        >> maintaining Gherkin to non-programmer intermediaries like BAs or Testers.
        >> As long as the customer and those intermediaries are active participants
        >> in
        >> the project, especially in the conversation about each story, that can
        >> work
        >> fine. Leveraging a language that non-programmers can read helps align
        >> everybody's understanding.
        >>
        >>
        > Sure, as long as the BAs and/or testers are part of a whole team and not a
        > distinct group that is physically separate.
        >
        > It is possible to teach testers to write and maintain Gherkin. I have done
        > it. It is also possible to train BAs to act as effective customer proxies.
        > Neither is as good as the active participation of an actual onsite
        > customer, though.
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • JackM
        Thanks Ron, I ll see what I can pull together. Jack
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 26, 2013
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          Thanks Ron,

          I'll see what I can pull together.

          Jack

          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Jack,
          >
          > On Jul 22, 2013, at 3:16 PM, "JackM" <jack@...> wrote:
          >
          > > I am looking for really good examples of acceptance test criteria so that I can help the PO's and Teams to understand what makes really good acceptance test criteria.
          >
          >
          > In addition to the reading suggested already, how about you tell us some of your user stories and we'll brainstorm some tests.
          >
          > Ron Jeffries
          > www.XProgramming.com
          > If it is more than you need, it is waste. -- Andy Seidl
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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