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Re: [XP] Rise & Fall of Design Patterns:Lessons to learn?

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  • Agustin Villena
    Hi Steven Good link! My question is about the root cause that explain why this approaches didn t get traction. The current ways to document agile methods (e.g.
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 23, 2013
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      Hi Steven

      Good link!
      My question is about the root cause that explain why this approaches didn't
      get traction.

      The current ways to document agile methods (e.g. The Scrum Guide) IMHO
      leads to cargo cult, since they hide the context where the practices are
      appropriate.

      If design patterns don't work, we need a similar way.

      Best Regards
      Agustín
      El jul 22, 2013 1:37 AM, "Steven Gordon" <sgordonphd@...> escribió:

      > A really good example of a pattern-based approach to agile practices can be
      > found at http://www.aptprocess.com/whitepapers/risk/RiskToPatternTable.htm
      >
      > However, that fact that it is oldish and never gained much favor or
      > visibility (as far as I know) does support your implication that the
      > patterns movement has fallen out of favor.
      >
      > SteveG
      >
      > On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Agustin Villena
      > <agustin.villena@...>wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi all!
      > >
      > > Design Patterns was one of the great sources of XP in its origins, and
      > > therefore of the agile movement, and I still found that creating Design
      > > Patterns is a very good form of organizing knowledge, and I´m looking for
      > > an approach to document agile practices as method patterns,
      > >
      > > My questions are.
      > > - Which are the great lessons from the Rise & fall of the Design patterns
      > > movement?
      > >
      > > Thanks
      > > Agustin Villena
      > > @agustinvillena
      > >
      > > PD: I´m aware that DP is not really dead, and, following the technology
      > > hype cycle curve maybe it have its time of hype and now is on the plateau
      > > of productivity, but in IMHO DP are less important now that they deserve.
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
      >
      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michal Svoboda
      ... Not sure if you are talking about the GOF patterns? But generally my reply applies to any patterns -- Patterns are your basic algebra not your silver
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 23, 2013
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        Agustin Villena wrote:
        > My question is about the root cause that explain why this approaches didn't
        > get traction.

        Not sure if you are talking about the GOF patterns? But generally my
        reply applies to any "patterns" --

        Patterns are your basic algebra not your silver bullet. (Believe the
        same sentence is in the GOF book.) Patterns are not lego bricks but
        teach problem avoidance through tradeoffs and mindsets. As far as I am
        concerned, patterns have plenty traction and are far from the Fall.

        As I said the same applies to the GOF patterns, messaging patterns, and
        so forth, finally even to the XP practices.

        Michal Svoboda
      • Filipe Correia
        Hello Agustin and all, You may want to check out this (fairly recent) initiative to document Scrum as a pattern language:
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 23, 2013
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          Hello Agustin and all,

          You may want to check out this (fairly recent) initiative to document Scrum
          as a pattern language:
          https://sites.google.com/a/scrumplop.org/published-patterns/home

          Cheers,
          Filipe


          On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Agustin Villena
          <agustin.villena@...>wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Hi Steven
          >
          > Good link!
          > My question is about the root cause that explain why this approaches didn't
          > get traction.
          >
          > The current ways to document agile methods (e.g. The Scrum Guide) IMHO
          > leads to cargo cult, since they hide the context where the practices are
          > appropriate.
          >
          > If design patterns don't work, we need a similar way.
          >
          > Best Regards
          > Agust�n
          > El jul 22, 2013 1:37 AM, "Steven Gordon" <sgordonphd@...> escribi�:
          >
          >
          > > A really good example of a pattern-based approach to agile practices can
          > be
          > > found at
          > http://www.aptprocess.com/whitepapers/risk/RiskToPatternTable.htm
          > >
          > > However, that fact that it is oldish and never gained much favor or
          > > visibility (as far as I know) does support your implication that the
          > > patterns movement has fallen out of favor.
          > >
          > > SteveG
          > >
          > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Agustin Villena
          > > <agustin.villena@...>wrote:
          > >
          > > > **
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hi all!
          > > >
          > > > Design Patterns was one of the great sources of XP in its origins, and
          > > > therefore of the agile movement, and I still found that creating Design
          > > > Patterns is a very good form of organizing knowledge, and I�m looking
          > for
          > > > an approach to document agile practices as method patterns,
          > > >
          > > > My questions are.
          > > > - Which are the great lessons from the Rise & fall of the Design
          > patterns
          > > > movement?
          > > >
          > > > Thanks
          > > > Agustin Villena
          > > > @agustinvillena
          > > >
          > > > PD: I�m aware that DP is not really dead, and, following the technology
          > > > hype cycle curve maybe it have its time of hype and now is on the
          > plateau
          > > > of productivity, but in IMHO DP are less important now that they
          > deserve.
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          > >
          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          > >
          > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Adam Sroka
          I have stayed quiet on this one so far, but my opinion is this: The original GoF patterns are useful to learn, even though many of them are solving limitations
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 23, 2013
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            I have stayed quiet on this one so far, but my opinion is this:

            The original GoF patterns are useful to learn, even though many of them are
            solving limitations in the language rather than actual problems in the
            domain of your product.

            A few of my mentors were very active in the patterns community in the early
            days, and one of the things I learned from them is that it is more about
            the strategies you use to refactor towards a comprehensible design than the
            patterns per se. Named patterns are about communication. The most useful
            patterns are specific to the domain and/or technology we are working with.
            Generic patterns are useful for understanding solutions to limitations in
            our tools and techniques. Strategies cut across both.

            There are a number of GoF patterns that I use all the time. Sometimes that
            is because the languages/frameworks I use make use of them and I don't want
            to cut across the grain. Sometimes it is because I need them to isolate
            myself from limitations in the language/framework so that I can focus on
            domain specific language. In either case it is the domain language and the
            way that I translate that into my implementation language that are most
            important. If I understand that and can communicate effectively in my code
            then the patterns themselves are mostly academic.


            On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Michal Svoboda <pht@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Agustin Villena wrote:
            > > My question is about the root cause that explain why this approaches
            > didn't
            > > get traction.
            >
            > Not sure if you are talking about the GOF patterns? But generally my
            > reply applies to any "patterns" --
            >
            > Patterns are your basic algebra not your silver bullet. (Believe the
            > same sentence is in the GOF book.) Patterns are not lego bricks but
            > teach problem avoidance through tradeoffs and mindsets. As far as I am
            > concerned, patterns have plenty traction and are far from the Fall.
            >
            > As I said the same applies to the GOF patterns, messaging patterns, and
            > so forth, finally even to the XP practices.
            >
            > Michal Svoboda
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Filipe Correia
            I would consider it indicative that the patterns community is still very active in documenting agile practices! :-) The design patterns buzzword might not be
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 23, 2013
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              I would consider it indicative that the patterns community is still
              very active in documenting agile practices! :-)

              The "design patterns" buzzword might not be as hyped as it once was,
              but more patterns are being documented every year. Some explicitly as
              such (see the xPLoP conferences --- PLoP, EuroPLoP, AsianPLoP,
              VikingPLoP, SugarLoafPLoP, etc), others not as explicitly but still
              very successfully (books like "Domain-Driven Design" make extensive
              use of patterns).

              So, coming back to your question, I wouldn't say design patterns have
              "fallen". They just entered the mainstream.

              Filipe


              On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Agustin Villena
              <agustin.villena@...> wrote:
              > Good resource
              >
              > Thanks!
              >
              >
              > Agustin
              >
              >
              > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Filipe Correia <fcorreia@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Hello Agustin and all,
              >>
              >> You may want to check out this (fairly recent) initiative to document
              >> Scrum
              >> as a pattern language:
              >> https://sites.google.com/a/scrumplop.org/published-patterns/home
              >>
              >> Cheers,
              >> Filipe
              >>
              >>
              >> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Agustin Villena
              >> <agustin.villena@...>wrote:
              >>
              >> > **
              >>
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > Hi Steven
              >> >
              >> > Good link!
              >> > My question is about the root cause that explain why this approaches
              >> > didn't
              >> > get traction.
              >> >
              >> > The current ways to document agile methods (e.g. The Scrum Guide) IMHO
              >> > leads to cargo cult, since they hide the context where the practices are
              >> > appropriate.
              >> >
              >> > If design patterns don't work, we need a similar way.
              >> >
              >> > Best Regards
              >> > Agustín
              >> > El jul 22, 2013 1:37 AM, "Steven Gordon" <sgordonphd@...>
              >> > escribió:
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > > A really good example of a pattern-based approach to agile practices
              >> > > can
              >> > be
              >> > > found at
              >> > http://www.aptprocess.com/whitepapers/risk/RiskToPatternTable.htm
              >> > >
              >> > > However, that fact that it is oldish and never gained much favor or
              >> > > visibility (as far as I know) does support your implication that the
              >> > > patterns movement has fallen out of favor.
              >> > >
              >> > > SteveG
              >> > >
              >> > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Agustin Villena
              >> > > <agustin.villena@...>wrote:
              >> > >
              >> > > > **
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Hi all!
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Design Patterns was one of the great sources of XP in its origins,
              >> > > > and
              >> > > > therefore of the agile movement, and I still found that creating
              >> > > > Design
              >> > > > Patterns is a very good form of organizing knowledge, and I´m
              >> > > > looking
              >> > for
              >> > > > an approach to document agile practices as method patterns,
              >> > > >
              >> > > > My questions are.
              >> > > > - Which are the great lessons from the Rise & fall of the Design
              >> > patterns
              >> > > > movement?
              >> > > >
              >> > > > Thanks
              >> > > > Agustin Villena
              >> > > > @agustinvillena
              >> > > >
              >> > > > PD: I´m aware that DP is not really dead, and, following the
              >> > > > technology
              >> > > > hype cycle curve maybe it have its time of hype and now is on the
              >> > plateau
              >> > > > of productivity, but in IMHO DP are less important now that they
              >> > deserve.
              >> > > >
              >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > >
              >> > >
              >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >> > >
              >> > >
              >> > >
              >> > > ------------------------------------
              >> > >
              >> > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >> > >
              >> > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              >> > > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              >> > >
              >> > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >> > >
              >> > >
              >> > >
              >> > >
              >> >
              >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >>
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >>
              >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              >> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              >>
              >> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
            • Sean Corfield
              ... Indeed. If you work primarily in FP languages, rather than OOP languages, several of those patterns are either built into the language or are simply
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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                On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                > The original GoF patterns are useful to learn, even though many of them are
                > solving limitations in the language rather than actual problems in the
                > domain of your product.

                Indeed. If you work primarily in FP languages, rather than OOP
                languages, several of those "patterns" are either built into the
                language or are simply irrelevant. A few of them apply as-is, some
                apply in a different form.

                I remember when the GoF book came out and it was quite revolutionary
                at the time ('94, as I recall?) - the OOP world was evolving very
                rapidly back then (late 80's thru mid-90's) and there were a lot of
                exciting things happening, interesting conferences and technical
                papers, ground-breaking books, etc. In the decades since, that's all
                become just part of the accepted canon of OOP wisdom and we talk about
                it a lot less.

                As we see the resurgence of FP, it will be interesting to see if we
                get a similar spike of excitement and new material. I suspect we won't
                because FP has been around for so long in the background, although we
                are seeing interesting conferences focusing on FP (The Strange Loop is
                fairly heavily FP-focused, Lambda Jam recently was a great FP-focused
                cross-language event). We have a whole generation of OOP developers
                who will have to unlearn a lot of "bad habits" and learn a whole new
                way of thinking - ironically the previous generation take to FP more
                easily, in my experience, because they knew other styles of
                programming before OOP!

                After the initial fuss around Design Patterns died down, the Patterns
                community moved on to codify and categorize patterns in process in a
                (mostly) technology-neutral way and that seems to be an area that
                never got as much interest from the broader software development
                community as it deserved. Nice to see some mention of that aspect of
                patterns in this thread.
                --
                Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
                An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
                World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/

                "Perfection is the enemy of the good."
                -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
              • Agustin Villena
                Thank you all for the great feedback Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair point), but that was not my point. My real
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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                  Thank you all for the great feedback

                  Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair
                  point), but that was not my point.

                  My real question is:

                  If we want to use Patterns to document and communicate Agile Practices,
                  which pitfalls of the early Design Patterns movement we should avoid? (for
                  the goal of being really relevant for agile practitioners)

                  Saludos
                  Agustín
                  El jul 21, 2013 9:50 PM, "Agustin Villena" <agustin.villena@...>
                  escribió:

                  > Hi all!
                  >
                  > Design Patterns was one of the great sources of XP in its origins, and
                  > therefore of the agile movement, and I still found that creating Design
                  > Patterns is a very good form of organizing knowledge, and I´m looking for
                  > an approach to document agile practices as method patterns,
                  >
                  > My questions are.
                  > - Which are the great lessons from the Rise & fall of the Design patterns
                  > movement?
                  >
                  > Thanks
                  > Agustin Villena
                  > @agustinvillena
                  >
                  > PD: I´m aware that DP is not really dead, and, following the technology
                  > hype cycle curve maybe it have its time of hype and now is on the plateau
                  > of productivity, but in IMHO DP are less important now that they deserve.
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Steven Gordon
                  The biggest pitfall would be presenting it primarily to pattern mavens at pattern conferences. For such an effort to be successful, the primary audience must
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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                    The biggest pitfall would be presenting it primarily to pattern mavens at
                    pattern conferences.

                    For such an effort to be successful, the primary audience must be active
                    Agile practitioners (e.g., coaches, scrum masters, agile PMOs, ...) and the
                    primary utility should be that it makes them more effective, not that it
                    leverages patterns.

                    Do not emphasize the pattern formalisms, at least until after some
                    successes.

                    SteveG

                    On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Agustin Villena <agustin.villena@...
                    > wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you all for the great feedback
                    >
                    > Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair
                    > point), but that was not my point.
                    >
                    > My real question is:
                    >
                    > If we want to use Patterns to document and communicate Agile Practices,
                    > which pitfalls of the early Design Patterns movement we should avoid? (for
                    > the goal of being really relevant for agile practitioners)
                    >
                    > Saludos
                    > Agust�n
                    > El jul 21, 2013 9:50 PM, "Agustin Villena" <agustin.villena@...>
                    > escribi�:
                    >
                    > > Hi all!
                    > >
                    > > Design Patterns was one of the great sources of XP in its origins, and
                    > > therefore of the agile movement, and I still found that creating Design
                    > > Patterns is a very good form of organizing knowledge, and I�m looking for
                    > > an approach to document agile practices as method patterns,
                    > >
                    > > My questions are.
                    > > - Which are the great lessons from the Rise & fall of the Design patterns
                    > > movement?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks
                    > > Agustin Villena
                    > > @agustinvillena
                    > >
                    > > PD: I�m aware that DP is not really dead, and, following the technology
                    > > hype cycle curve maybe it have its time of hype and now is on the plateau
                    > > of productivity, but in IMHO DP are less important now that they deserve.
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Agustin Villena
                    Steve Good points! Thanks Agustín ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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                      Steve
                      Good points!
                      Thanks
                      Agustín
                      El jul 24, 2013 3:06 PM, "Steven Gordon" <sgordonphd@...> escribió:

                      > The biggest pitfall would be presenting it primarily to pattern mavens at
                      > pattern conferences.
                      >
                      > For such an effort to be successful, the primary audience must be active
                      > Agile practitioners (e.g., coaches, scrum masters, agile PMOs, ...) and the
                      > primary utility should be that it makes them more effective, not that it
                      > leverages patterns.
                      >
                      > Do not emphasize the pattern formalisms, at least until after some
                      > successes.
                      >
                      > SteveG
                      >
                      > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Agustin Villena <
                      > agustin.villena@...
                      > > wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Thank you all for the great feedback
                      > >
                      > > Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair
                      > > point), but that was not my point.
                      > >
                      > > My real question is:
                      > >
                      > > If we want to use Patterns to document and communicate Agile Practices,
                      > > which pitfalls of the early Design Patterns movement we should avoid?
                      > (for
                      > > the goal of being really relevant for agile practitioners)
                      > >
                      > > Saludos
                      > > Agustín
                      > > El jul 21, 2013 9:50 PM, "Agustin Villena" <agustin.villena@...>
                      > > escribió:
                      > >
                      > > > Hi all!
                      > > >
                      > > > Design Patterns was one of the great sources of XP in its origins, and
                      > > > therefore of the agile movement, and I still found that creating Design
                      > > > Patterns is a very good form of organizing knowledge, and I´m looking
                      > for
                      > > > an approach to document agile practices as method patterns,
                      > > >
                      > > > My questions are.
                      > > > - Which are the great lessons from the Rise & fall of the Design
                      > patterns
                      > > > movement?
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks
                      > > > Agustin Villena
                      > > > @agustinvillena
                      > > >
                      > > > PD: I´m aware that DP is not really dead, and, following the technology
                      > > > hype cycle curve maybe it have its time of hype and now is on the
                      > plateau
                      > > > of productivity, but in IMHO DP are less important now that they
                      > deserve.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • George Dinwiddie
                      Agustín, ... I would be careful to make it clear that the patterns are not recipes, and not universally good, but responses to a context. And I would
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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                        Agustín,

                        On 7/24/13 2:53 PM, Agustin Villena wrote:
                        > Thank you all for the great feedback
                        >
                        > Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair
                        > point), but that was not my point.
                        >
                        > My real question is:
                        >
                        > If we want to use Patterns to document and communicate Agile Practices,
                        > which pitfalls of the early Design Patterns movement we should avoid? (for
                        > the goal of being really relevant for agile practitioners)

                        I would be careful to make it clear that the patterns are not recipes,
                        and not "universally good," but responses to a context. And I would
                        illustrate each pattern in several contexts to show variations. Tell the
                        story, not just the skeleton of the pattern.

                        - George

                        --
                        Want to speak at AgileDC October 8, 2013? http://agiledc.org/speak/
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                        * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                        Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                        Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      • Agustin Villena
                        Thanks George! Saludos Agustín El jul 24, 2013 9:44 PM, George Dinwiddie ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 24, 2013
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                          Thanks George!

                          Saludos
                          Agust�n
                          El jul 24, 2013 9:44 PM, "George Dinwiddie" <lists@...>
                          escribi�:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > Agust�n,
                          >
                          > On 7/24/13 2:53 PM, Agustin Villena wrote:
                          > > Thank you all for the great feedback
                          > >
                          > > Many answered questioning if Design Patterns has really fallen (a fair
                          > > point), but that was not my point.
                          > >
                          > > My real question is:
                          > >
                          > > If we want to use Patterns to document and communicate Agile Practices,
                          > > which pitfalls of the early Design Patterns movement we should avoid?
                          > (for
                          > > the goal of being really relevant for agile practitioners)
                          >
                          > I would be careful to make it clear that the patterns are not recipes,
                          > and not "universally good," but responses to a context. And I would
                          > illustrate each pattern in several contexts to show variations. Tell the
                          > story, not just the skeleton of the pattern.
                          >
                          > - George
                          >
                          > --
                          > Want to speak at AgileDC October 8, 2013? http://agiledc.org/speak/
                          > ----------------------------------------------------------
                          > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                          > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                          > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                          > ----------------------------------------------------------
                          >
                          >
                          >


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