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Re: [XP] Developer Stories

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  • Adam Sroka
    ... stories into the Planning Game? This gets more complicated if there is a legacy/technical debt. ... You are right. ... improvement, then just let that play
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 18, 2013
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      On Apr 18, 2013 8:08 PM, "☈king" <ryanjosephking@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi all!
      >
      > Am I wrong, or is it generally bad for developers to put their own
      stories into the Planning Game? This gets more complicated if there is a
      legacy/technical debt.
      >

      You are right.

      > Shouldn't they just decide what is right to chip at as far as internal
      improvement, then just let that play out in the velocity?
      >

      It is the team's responsibility to keep the code clean. They should never
      ask the customer for permission to do so.

      > Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but it seems like if you try to mix those
      discussions into the planning, the Customer won't have a clear way to
      prioritize the stories they know/understand/feel vs. these weird techie
      ones from some strange land.
      >

      Yes, technical stories are a process smell. They should not be used.

      > I know XP addresses this, but I don't remember how or where.
      >

      We mercillessly refactor our code and we never ask the customer's
      permission to do so. It takes however long it takes, which is not very long
      with TDD. That is how XP addresses it.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Phlip
      ... Unfortunately for the process, I m sometimes better than my clients and customers at thinking of a new feature. XP: No, never add a feature story to the
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 19, 2013
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        >> Am I wrong, or is it generally bad for developers to put their own
        > stories into the Planning Game? This gets more complicated if there is a
        > legacy/technical debt.
        >
        > You are right.

        Unfortunately for the process, I'm sometimes better than my clients
        and customers at thinking of a new feature.

        XP: No, never add a feature story to the system. Real life: Yes; show
        leadership.
      • Rafael Fuchs
        I just read this article about this subject. It has sometips related to hadling technical debt and how to fit into user stories.
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 19, 2013
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          I just read this article about this subject.

          It has sometips related to hadling technical debt and how to fit into user
          stories.

          http://www.infoq.com/news/2013/03/user-stories-technical-debt

          --
          Rafael Fuchs


          On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > >> Am I wrong, or is it generally bad for developers to put their own
          > > stories into the Planning Game? This gets more complicated if there is a
          > > legacy/technical debt.
          > >
          > > You are right.
          >
          > Unfortunately for the process, I'm sometimes better than my clients
          > and customers at thinking of a new feature.
          >
          > XP: No, never add a feature story to the system. Real life: Yes; show
          > leadership.
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Curtis Cooley
          If it helps: http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/as-a-developer-is-not-a-user-story/ ... -- ... Curtis Cooley Agile Coach Industrial Logic
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 19, 2013
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            If it helps:
            http://www.industriallogic.com/blog/as-a-developer-is-not-a-user-story/


            On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:08 PM, ☈king <ryanjosephking@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Hi all!
            >
            > Am I wrong, or is it generally bad for developers to put their own stories
            > into the Planning Game? This gets more complicated if there is a
            > legacy/technical debt.
            >
            > Shouldn't they just decide what is right to chip at as far as internal
            > improvement, then just let that play out in the velocity?
            >
            > Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but it seems like if you try to mix those
            > discussions into the planning, the Customer won't have a clear way to
            > prioritize the stories they know/understand/feel vs. these weird techie
            > ones from some strange land.
            >
            > I know XP addresses this, but I don't remember how or where.
            >
            > Thanks!
            > —RK
            >
            >
            >



            --
            --------------------------------------
            Curtis Cooley
            Agile Coach
            Industrial Logic
            curtis@...


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Adam Sroka
            Absolutely the whole team can contribute to the creation of good stories. However, given the additional context in the original post I don t think that was the
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 19, 2013
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              Absolutely the whole team can contribute to the creation of good stories.
              However, given the additional context in the original post I don't think
              that was the question. Team members helping to write stories, yes.
              Technical team members contributing stories that the customer cannot fully
              comprehend or prioritize, no.


              On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > >> Am I wrong, or is it generally bad for developers to put their own
              > > stories into the Planning Game? This gets more complicated if there is a
              > > legacy/technical debt.
              > >
              > > You are right.
              >
              > Unfortunately for the process, I'm sometimes better than my clients
              > and customers at thinking of a new feature.
              >
              > XP: No, never add a feature story to the system. Real life: Yes; show
              > leadership.
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • JeffGrigg
              ... It s nearly always good for developers to *suggest* stories that could be done. This is a human venture. We benefit from getting as many good ideas out
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 20, 2013
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                >>> Am I wrong, or is it generally bad for developers to put
                >>> their own stories into the Planning Game? This gets more
                >>> complicated if there is a legacy/technical debt.

                >> You are right.

                --- Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:
                > Unfortunately for the process, I'm sometimes better than my
                > clients and customers at thinking of a new feature.
                >
                > XP: No, never add a feature story to the system.
                > Real life: Yes; show leadership.

                It's nearly always good for developers to *suggest* stories that could be done. This is a human venture. We benefit from getting as many good ideas out there as possible. And the developers will have a good idea of what is possible and easy -- and which may provide value.

                But the Customer determines the priorities. So your brilliant idea might be prioritized to "yes, let's do it now" or "no, let's do it 'never.'"
              • JeffGrigg
                ... Perhaps it would be helpful to ask questions like this: Would anyone outside the development team care if the system is more or less maintainable in the
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 20, 2013
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                  --- Rafael Fuchs <rafaelfuchs@...> wrote:
                  > I just read this article about this subject.
                  >
                  > It has sometips related to hadling technical debt and
                  > how to fit into user stories.
                  >
                  > http://www.infoq.com/news/2013/03/user-stories-technical-debt

                  Perhaps it would be helpful to ask questions like this:

                  Would anyone outside the development team care if the system is more or less maintainable in the near future? Would the people who will have to pay for it be interested? Would people who have to use it and would be denied features they need due to maintenance costs be interested?

                  Would anyone outside the development team care if the system is reliable? Would any of the people who use it like the system to reliably produce the expected results, in both the short and long term?

                  Sure, it's easy and common for <someone> to blame the developers (or the DBA, or operations, etc.) when something goes bad. But that does imply that "<someone>" cares. So it must impact them in some negative way.
                • Phlip
                  Adam Sroka : Team members helping to write stories, yes. Technical team members contributing stories that the customer cannot fully comprehend or prioritize,
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 20, 2013
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                    Adam Sroka :

                    Team members helping to write stories, yes.
                    Technical team members contributing stories that the customer cannot fully
                    comprehend or prioritize, no.


                    JeffGrigg wrote:

                    > It's nearly always good for developers to *suggest* stories that could be done. This is a human venture. We benefit from getting as many good ideas out there as possible. And the developers will have a good idea of what is possible and easy -- and which may provide value.
                    >
                    > But the Customer determines the priorities. So your brilliant idea might be prioritized to "yes, let's do it now" or "no, let's do it 'never.'"

                    There are also Motherhood Stories. These can accrete, if nobody was
                    prescient enough to declare one up front...
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