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Re: [XP] Architecture backlog

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  • JeffGrigg
    ... Epics ... You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it doesn t make it a good thing to have.
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 13, 2013
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      --- "JackM" <jack@...> wrote:
      > ... we identify ... Epics upfront. ...

      "Epics"...

      You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it doesn't make it a good thing to have.
    • JeffGrigg
      ... ...kinda like war .
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 13, 2013
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        > --- "JackM" <jack@> wrote:
        >> ... we identify ... Epics upfront. ...

        --- "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
        > "Epics"...
        >
        > You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it
        > doesn't make it a good thing to have.

        ...kinda like "war".
      • steveropa
        Considering the calendar, I was going to say like “taxes”... I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they feel are Agile terms
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 14, 2013
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          Considering the calendar, I was going to say like “taxes”...


          I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they feel are Agile terms in order to bring us back to BDUF and waterfall. And there are a lot of people I really like and respect who are following that will-o-the-wisp. Whenever I start to say “don’t do that” I start to feel like I’m coming across as the grumpy old man. Any suggestions as to a gentle way to say “this hasn’t worked yet, why do you think this time will be different?” when it comes to following that path?



          Steve



          From: JeffGrigg
          Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎April‎ ‎13‎, ‎2013 ‎1‎:‎48‎ ‎AM
          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com





          > --- "JackM" <jack@> wrote:
          >> ... we identify ... Epics upfront. ...

          --- "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
          > "Epics"...
          >
          > You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it
          > doesn't make it a good thing to have.

          ...kinda like "war".





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • JackM
          Perhaps, I am misunderstanding you but i am having difficulty understanding why identifying high level what you are trying to accomplish in a release is BDUF.
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 15, 2013
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            Perhaps, I am misunderstanding you but i am having difficulty understanding why identifying high level what you are trying to accomplish in a release is BDUF.

            We have extremely large customers with long sales cycles and our pipeline is generally aligned with what our customers long term needs are.

            It's important for us to understand what's coming so that we are prepared. Identifying risks upfront has been extremely helpful. We're talking one to two quarters out at the epic level.

            My understanding is that planning to the horizons is common practice ... i.e. sprint horizon, requires 2 sprints worth of well understood well ranked stories. At the quarterly horizon prob a good idea that the teams have a good handle on what epics are on the horizon etc.

            Thanks
            jack
            agilebuddy.com


            --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, <steveropa@...> wrote:
            >
            > Considering the calendar, I was going to say like “taxes”...
            >
            >
            > I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they feel are Agile terms in order to bring us back to BDUF and waterfall. And there are a lot of people I really like and respect who are following that will-o-the-wisp. Whenever I start to say “don’t do that” I start to feel like I’m coming across as the grumpy old man. Any suggestions as to a gentle way to say “this hasn’t worked yet, why do you think this time will be different?” when it comes to following that path?
            >
            >
            >
            > Steve
            >
            >
            >
            > From: JeffGrigg
            > Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎April‎ ‎13‎, ‎2013 ‎1‎:‎48‎ ‎AM
            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > > --- "JackM" <jack@> wrote:
            > >> ... we identify ... Epics upfront. ...
            >
            > --- "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@> wrote:
            > > "Epics"...
            > >
            > > You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it
            > > doesn't make it a good thing to have.
            >
            > ...kinda like "war".
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Adam Dymitruk
            You can t agile away architectural decisions. Domain Driven Design gives us some headlights to follow, as do concepts such as CQRS. What we know up front is
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 15, 2013
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              You can't agile away architectural decisions. Domain Driven Design gives us
              some headlights to follow, as do concepts such as CQRS. What we know up
              front is SLAs for certain actions the user is going to take - at least what
              they tell us they are.

              Ignoring these concepts can lead into a nice design that falls out of TDD,
              but fails under load. These are requirements, but they are non-functional
              requirements where stories feel like fitting a square peg into a round hole.

              So far, DDD has managed to keep iterating over non-functional requirements
              not too expensive. And concepts like CQRS and event sourcing can help
              refactor mid way through and replay events into an alternate set of domain
              objects.

              The backlog is easy to determine once you set up a strategy. One that works
              for me is DDD/CQRS/ES in whole or part.

              My $0.02

              Adam

              --
              Dymitruk.com
              On 2013-04-15 9:25 AM, "JackM" <jack@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Perhaps, I am misunderstanding you but i am having difficulty
              > understanding why identifying high level what you are trying to accomplish
              > in a release is BDUF.
              >
              > We have extremely large customers with long sales cycles and our pipeline
              > is generally aligned with what our customers long term needs are.
              >
              > It's important for us to understand what's coming so that we are prepared.
              > Identifying risks upfront has been extremely helpful. We're talking one to
              > two quarters out at the epic level.
              >
              > My understanding is that planning to the horizons is common practice ...
              > i.e. sprint horizon, requires 2 sprints worth of well understood well
              > ranked stories. At the quarterly horizon prob a good idea that the teams
              > have a good handle on what epics are on the horizon etc.
              >
              > Thanks
              > jack
              > agilebuddy.com
              >
              > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, <steveropa@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Considering the calendar, I was going to say like “taxes†...
              > >
              > >
              > > I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they
              > feel are Agile terms in order to bring us back to BDUF and waterfall. And
              > there are a lot of people I really like and respect who are following that
              > will-o-the-wisp. Whenever I start to say “don’t do that†I start to
              > feel like I’m coming across as the grumpy old man. Any suggestions as to
              > a gentle way to say “this hasn’t worked yet, why do you think this time
              > will be different?†when it comes to following that path?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Steve
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From: JeffGrigg
              > > Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎April‎ ‎13‎, ‎2013 ‎1‎:‎48‎
              > ‎AM
              > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > > --- "JackM" <jack@> wrote:
              > > >> ... we identify ... Epics upfront. ...
              > >
              > > --- "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@> wrote:
              > > > "Epics"...
              > > >
              > > > You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it
              > > > doesn't make it a good thing to have.
              > >
              > > ...kinda like "war".
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michal Svoboda
              ... Interesting thread. Why do you think epics are bringing us back to BDUF? Michal Svoboda
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 15, 2013
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                steveropa@... wrote:
                > I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they
                > feel are Agile terms in order to bring us back to BDUF and waterfall.

                Interesting thread. Why do you think epics are bringing us back to BDUF?

                Michal Svoboda
              • Leonardo Postacchini
                By increasing real sprint size(time in between deliverables regardless what you tagged as the sprint) for example. Look back at this thread: planning ahead,
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 17, 2013
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                  By increasing real sprint size(time in between deliverables regardless what
                  you tagged as the sprint) for example. Look back at this thread: planning
                  ahead, looking to the horizon, making architetural decisions up front, big
                  client having big needs being served by long deliveries.

                  All of it sounds and smells like waterfall.

                  On Tuesday, April 16, 2013, Michal Svoboda wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > steveropa@... <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'steveropa%40gmail.com');>wrote:
                  > > I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they
                  > > feel are Agile terms in order to bring us back to BDUF and waterfall.
                  >
                  > Interesting thread. Why do you think epics are bringing us back to BDUF?
                  >
                  > Michal Svoboda
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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