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Re: [XP] Architecture backlog

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  • Curtis Cooley
    ... advance you have to make a lot of assumptions and guesses. You are not waiting until the last responsible moment. I also feel you are assuming all large
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 12 9:36 AM
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      On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 7:44 AM, JackM <jack@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > I have a feeling that this forum is going to say that architecture
      > shouldn't be ahead but rather handled together with the epic development in
      > a thin slice approach.
      >
      > I'm in this camp because when you try to figure out your architecture in
      advance you have to make a lot of assumptions and guesses. You are not
      waiting until the last responsible moment.

      I also feel you are assuming all large scale architectures are the same,
      and you can just grab a book on enterprise architecture and copy into
      yours. When you do this, you are missing the opportunity not only to mold
      the architecture to your needs, but to find revolutionary approaches to
      your enterprise problems.

      If you allow your architecture to evolve, it more closely matches your
      needs, you make architectural decisions when you know enough about your
      software to make them, and you give yourself the opportunity to break out
      of the mold and perhaps create something interesting and awesome.
      --
      --------------------------------------
      Curtis Cooley
      Agile Coach
      Industrial Logic
      curtis@...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ram Srinivasan
      ... link, if possible? Thanks, Ram ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 12 12:28 PM
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        On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 10:44 AM, JackM <jack@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > I was fortunate to catch one of Mike Cottemeyer's webinars on Acieving
        > Business Agility at the Porfolio level.
        >

        >> I would be actually interested to know what he says. Can you send me the
        link, if possible?

        Thanks,
        Ram

        > Thanks
        > jack
        > www.agilebuddy.com
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • JackM
        I buy that, and in actual fact our architecture does evolve. However the way we work is upfront of a release we identify investment areas and Epics upfront. we
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 12 3:49 PM
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          I buy that, and in actual fact our architecture does evolve. However the way we work is upfront of a release we identify investment areas and Epics upfront. we work in 6 week increments 3 sprints of 2 weeks each. so generally we know which epics are coming up in the next 6 week increment and we identify any potential risks upfront and try to start thinking about what architecture elements we need in place, what security pieces will be impacted etc. So ahead of the next cycle we're working on risk reducing our backlog so we can drive more certainty in our process.

          At the sprint level we do something similar - we have at least 2 sprints worth of stories ranked, and any uncertainty in the forthcoming sprint we try to run spikes in the current sprint. this makes our planning better, it makes us more reliable and we're able to commit better through upfront understanding.

          So these architecture pieces we identify upfront is kind of where my question lies. what should an architecture roadmap look like, are they simply epics in and of themselves. Is it a separate backlog etc.

          In regards the link to the presentation, i'll try to post later as i don't have it handy.

          Cheers
          Jack
          www.agilebuddy.com

          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Cooley <curtis@...> wrote:
          >
          > On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 7:44 AM, JackM <jack@...> wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > I have a feeling that this forum is going to say that architecture
          > > shouldn't be ahead but rather handled together with the epic development in
          > > a thin slice approach.
          > >
          > > I'm in this camp because when you try to figure out your architecture in
          > advance you have to make a lot of assumptions and guesses. You are not
          > waiting until the last responsible moment.
          >
          > I also feel you are assuming all large scale architectures are the same,
          > and you can just grab a book on enterprise architecture and copy into
          > yours. When you do this, you are missing the opportunity not only to mold
          > the architecture to your needs, but to find revolutionary approaches to
          > your enterprise problems.
          >
          > If you allow your architecture to evolve, it more closely matches your
          > needs, you make architectural decisions when you know enough about your
          > software to make them, and you give yourself the opportunity to break out
          > of the mold and perhaps create something interesting and awesome.
          > --
          > --------------------------------------
          > Curtis Cooley
          > Agile Coach
          > Industrial Logic
          > curtis@...
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • JeffGrigg
          ... Epics ... You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it doesn t make it a good thing to have.
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 13 12:47 AM
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            --- "JackM" <jack@...> wrote:
            > ... we identify ... Epics upfront. ...

            "Epics"...

            You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it doesn't make it a good thing to have.
          • JeffGrigg
            ... ...kinda like war .
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 13 12:48 AM
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              > --- "JackM" <jack@> wrote:
              >> ... we identify ... Epics upfront. ...

              --- "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
              > "Epics"...
              >
              > You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it
              > doesn't make it a good thing to have.

              ...kinda like "war".
            • steveropa
              Considering the calendar, I was going to say like “taxes”... I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they feel are Agile terms
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 14 11:53 AM
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                Considering the calendar, I was going to say like “taxes”...


                I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they feel are Agile terms in order to bring us back to BDUF and waterfall. And there are a lot of people I really like and respect who are following that will-o-the-wisp. Whenever I start to say “don’t do that” I start to feel like I’m coming across as the grumpy old man. Any suggestions as to a gentle way to say “this hasn’t worked yet, why do you think this time will be different?” when it comes to following that path?



                Steve



                From: JeffGrigg
                Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎April‎ ‎13‎, ‎2013 ‎1‎:‎48‎ ‎AM
                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com





                > --- "JackM" <jack@> wrote:
                >> ... we identify ... Epics upfront. ...

                --- "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                > "Epics"...
                >
                > You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it
                > doesn't make it a good thing to have.

                ...kinda like "war".





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • JackM
                Perhaps, I am misunderstanding you but i am having difficulty understanding why identifying high level what you are trying to accomplish in a release is BDUF.
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 15 9:21 AM
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                  Perhaps, I am misunderstanding you but i am having difficulty understanding why identifying high level what you are trying to accomplish in a release is BDUF.

                  We have extremely large customers with long sales cycles and our pipeline is generally aligned with what our customers long term needs are.

                  It's important for us to understand what's coming so that we are prepared. Identifying risks upfront has been extremely helpful. We're talking one to two quarters out at the epic level.

                  My understanding is that planning to the horizons is common practice ... i.e. sprint horizon, requires 2 sprints worth of well understood well ranked stories. At the quarterly horizon prob a good idea that the teams have a good handle on what epics are on the horizon etc.

                  Thanks
                  jack
                  agilebuddy.com


                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, <steveropa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Considering the calendar, I was going to say like “taxes”...
                  >
                  >
                  > I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they feel are Agile terms in order to bring us back to BDUF and waterfall. And there are a lot of people I really like and respect who are following that will-o-the-wisp. Whenever I start to say “don’t do that” I start to feel like I’m coming across as the grumpy old man. Any suggestions as to a gentle way to say “this hasn’t worked yet, why do you think this time will be different?” when it comes to following that path?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Steve
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: JeffGrigg
                  > Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎April‎ ‎13‎, ‎2013 ‎1‎:‎48‎ ‎AM
                  > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > --- "JackM" <jack@> wrote:
                  > >> ... we identify ... Epics upfront. ...
                  >
                  > --- "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@> wrote:
                  > > "Epics"...
                  > >
                  > > You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it
                  > > doesn't make it a good thing to have.
                  >
                  > ...kinda like "war".
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Adam Dymitruk
                  You can t agile away architectural decisions. Domain Driven Design gives us some headlights to follow, as do concepts such as CQRS. What we know up front is
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 15 11:02 AM
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                    You can't agile away architectural decisions. Domain Driven Design gives us
                    some headlights to follow, as do concepts such as CQRS. What we know up
                    front is SLAs for certain actions the user is going to take - at least what
                    they tell us they are.

                    Ignoring these concepts can lead into a nice design that falls out of TDD,
                    but fails under load. These are requirements, but they are non-functional
                    requirements where stories feel like fitting a square peg into a round hole.

                    So far, DDD has managed to keep iterating over non-functional requirements
                    not too expensive. And concepts like CQRS and event sourcing can help
                    refactor mid way through and replay events into an alternate set of domain
                    objects.

                    The backlog is easy to determine once you set up a strategy. One that works
                    for me is DDD/CQRS/ES in whole or part.

                    My $0.02

                    Adam

                    --
                    Dymitruk.com
                    On 2013-04-15 9:25 AM, "JackM" <jack@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Perhaps, I am misunderstanding you but i am having difficulty
                    > understanding why identifying high level what you are trying to accomplish
                    > in a release is BDUF.
                    >
                    > We have extremely large customers with long sales cycles and our pipeline
                    > is generally aligned with what our customers long term needs are.
                    >
                    > It's important for us to understand what's coming so that we are prepared.
                    > Identifying risks upfront has been extremely helpful. We're talking one to
                    > two quarters out at the epic level.
                    >
                    > My understanding is that planning to the horizons is common practice ...
                    > i.e. sprint horizon, requires 2 sprints worth of well understood well
                    > ranked stories. At the quarterly horizon prob a good idea that the teams
                    > have a good handle on what epics are on the horizon etc.
                    >
                    > Thanks
                    > jack
                    > agilebuddy.com
                    >
                    > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, <steveropa@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Considering the calendar, I was going to say like “taxes†...
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they
                    > feel are Agile terms in order to bring us back to BDUF and waterfall. And
                    > there are a lot of people I really like and respect who are following that
                    > will-o-the-wisp. Whenever I start to say “don’t do that†I start to
                    > feel like I’m coming across as the grumpy old man. Any suggestions as to
                    > a gentle way to say “this hasn’t worked yet, why do you think this time
                    > will be different?†when it comes to following that path?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Steve
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: JeffGrigg
                    > > Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎April‎ ‎13‎, ‎2013 ‎1‎:‎48‎
                    > ‎AM
                    > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > --- "JackM" <jack@> wrote:
                    > > >> ... we identify ... Epics upfront. ...
                    > >
                    > > --- "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@> wrote:
                    > > > "Epics"...
                    > > >
                    > > > You know, the fact that we have a convenient word for it
                    > > > doesn't make it a good thing to have.
                    > >
                    > > ...kinda like "war".
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michal Svoboda
                    ... Interesting thread. Why do you think epics are bringing us back to BDUF? Michal Svoboda
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 15 9:58 PM
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                      steveropa@... wrote:
                      > I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they
                      > feel are Agile terms in order to bring us back to BDUF and waterfall.

                      Interesting thread. Why do you think epics are bringing us back to BDUF?

                      Michal Svoboda
                    • Leonardo Postacchini
                      By increasing real sprint size(time in between deliverables regardless what you tagged as the sprint) for example. Look back at this thread: planning ahead,
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 17 5:00 AM
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                        By increasing real sprint size(time in between deliverables regardless what
                        you tagged as the sprint) for example. Look back at this thread: planning
                        ahead, looking to the horizon, making architetural decisions up front, big
                        client having big needs being served by long deliveries.

                        All of it sounds and smells like waterfall.

                        On Tuesday, April 16, 2013, Michal Svoboda wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > steveropa@... <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'steveropa%40gmail.com');>wrote:
                        > > I’m struggling with how many people are finding ways to use what they
                        > > feel are Agile terms in order to bring us back to BDUF and waterfall.
                        >
                        > Interesting thread. Why do you think epics are bringing us back to BDUF?
                        >
                        > Michal Svoboda
                        >
                        >
                        >


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