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Re: Zero Bugs vs Scale ( was Re: [XP] Back of the Door Sticky Note Issue Tracking.)

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  • Charlie Poole
    Hi John, I can t prove it but I feel intuitively (and my experience matches the feeling) that bug injection is related more closely to rate of code change
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 13, 2013
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      Hi John,

      I can't prove it but I feel intuitively (and my experience matches the
      feeling) that bug "injection" is related more closely to rate of code
      change rather than size of codebase by itself.

      Nevertheless, here are a few simple experiential observations...

      ... if you don't change the code at all, no new bugs are created (although
      some might be discovered)
      ... if you change the code more rapidly, while not increasing your
      attention to testing, bugs will increase generally
      ... if you change the code more rapidly, without releasing more frequently,
      bugs found after release will increase

      With regard to the comment you have received about "industry standards" my
      own answer is usually to ask if the folks are satisfied with being merely
      "standard." I react similarly when the phrase "state of the art" is used.

      YMMV, of course.

      Charlie



      On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:24 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:19 AM, <steveropa@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I had the same experience, and it actually got me laid off. Our team was
      > > consistently producing zero bugs, or if something did escape, it was so
      > > small and taken care of so quickly that it didn�t register in some
      > system.
      > >
      >
      > One push back I always get is "You can't expect zero bugs on the scale of
      > software we're doing (200+ man years multi-threaded embedded C). Of course
      > you don't get (many) defects on small codebases... but our defect injection
      > / discovery / fix rates are quite inline with industry standards text books
      > on large scale software."
      >
      > Anybody have any observations on Zero Defects vs Scale?
      >
      > --
      > John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
      > Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
      > PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
      > New Zealand
      >
      > --
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    • Ron Jeffries
      Hi John, ... Do you work one day at a time? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Sometimes you just have to stop holding on with both hands, both feet, and your
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 13, 2013
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        Hi John,

        On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:24 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:

        > Anybody have any observations on Zero Defects vs Scale?


        Do you work one day at a time?

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Sometimes you just have to stop holding on with both hands, both feet, and your tail, to get someplace better.
        Of course you might plummet to the earth and die, but probably not: you were made for this.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • JeffGrigg
        ... It turns out that our industry has ridiculously low standards. Embarrassingly low standards. Well of course you will never achieve /absolutely zero/
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 16, 2013
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          --- John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:
          > One push back I always get is "You can't expect zero bugs
          > on the scale of software we're doing (200+ man years multi-
          > threaded embedded C). Of course you don't get (many) defects
          > on small codebases... but our defect injection / discovery /
          > fix rates are quite inline with industry standards text books
          > on large scale software."
          >
          > Anybody have any observations on Zero Defects vs Scale?

          It turns out that our industry has ridiculously low standards. Embarrassingly low standards.

          Well of course you will never achieve /absolutely zero/ defects. But you get the benefits from using processes that can achieve a /vanishingly small/ defect rate, and honestly trying to hit zero most of the time. And when mistakes happen, you fix them and move on.

          It turns out that there really is no need to maintain a database full of known defects that we are "managing" -- meaning that we are ignoring them, for the most part.

          Do you want the software?

          Do you want it to work?
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