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Re: [XP] Back of the Door Sticky Note Issue Tracking.

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  • Steven Gordon
    ... I would agree with offering advice, but I would prefer not to prescribe it. In practice, teams generally follow said advice much better if they own it. ...
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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      On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Hi Steven,
      >
      >
      > On Mar 13, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:
      >
      > > A process that attempts to make it impossible for people to produce
      > defects
      > > would be too prescriptive to be efficient or to produce learning or
      > > innovation. We would all much prefer a process that facilitates people
      > > learning to get better, but then such a process would allow defects along
      > > the way.
      >
      > Could you perhaps phrase this idea in such a way as to do two things that
      > this does not:
      >
      > First, offer advice on what one might do, rather than on what one ought
      > not do, and, second, offer advice that tends to lead to a continuing
      > reduction of defects?
      >

      I would agree with offering advice, but I would prefer not to prescribe it.
      In practice, teams generally follow said advice much better if they own it.


      >
      > Ron Jeffries
      > www.XProgramming.com
      > I have two cats, and a big house full of cat stuff.
      > The cats fight and divide up the house, messing up their own lives.
      > Nice work cats.
      > Meow.
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michal Svoboda
      ... Fair enough. But I would say that s a natural occurrence, or imperfection if you will. No-one is born with coding skills, we all learn. Now if or how big
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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        Ron Jeffries wrote:
        > > ... as if there were other kinds of problems. ;-)
        > Oh, there are. Like if the team doesn't know how to write code that
        > works, and tests that demonstrate that fact.

        Fair enough. But I would say that's a natural occurrence, or imperfection
        if you will. No-one is born with coding skills, we all learn.

        Now if or how big this is a problem, depends on communication. If I don't
        talk about it or they don't listen, then problem grows. So I observe that
        problems in communication are able to create proportionally greater
        disasters than anything else.

        Michal Svoboda
      • Kay A Pentecost
        +1 ... magic.
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 14, 2013
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          +1

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
          > Poole
          > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:58 AM
          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [XP] Back of the Door Sticky Note Issue Tracking.
          >
          > Hi George,
          >
          > Maybe we should just say "Yes, we cheated. And we figured out a way to
          > keep cheating, so that tests keep passing. Do you want us to stop?"
          >
          > Charlie
          >
          >
          > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 9:52 PM, George Dinwiddie
          > <lists@...>wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > John,
          > >
          > > On 3/13/13 12:42 AM, John Carter wrote:
          > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:20 PM, George Dinwiddie
          > > > <lists@...>wrote:
          > > >
          > > >> I've seen a team of ordinary programmers reach the state of
          > > >> frequently shipping zero bugs (even measured after deployment), and
          > > >> quickly taking care of the ones that escaped an iteration. It's not
          magic.
          > > >>
          > > >
          > > > This is the Very Interesting Answer which I would like to bring home
          > > > to
          > > the
          > > > rest of the company....
          > > >
          > > > My colleagues are quite comfortable with the "lean manufacturing" no
          > > queues
          > > > answer, but plain flat out don't believe the "No Defect Magic" answer.
          > > >
          > > > So I'm looking for data / evidence / stories / books / papers to
          > > > convince them that we could do better.
          > >
          > > Do you think that will convince them?
          > >
          > > It didn't even convince the organization around them. The comment on
          > > their first release, when 92% of the release test scripts passed on
          > > the first attempt, was "they cheated; they tested ahead of time." I
          > > think it was the second or third release when they hit 100%.
          > >
          > > Yes, they tested, not always automated. They also had a sign on the
          > > wall that said "Zero bugs, the new normal."
          > >
          > > - George
          > >
          > > --
          > > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com Software Development
          > > http://www.idiacomputing.com Consultant and Coach
          > > http://www.agilemaryland.org
          > > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
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