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Re: [XP] Back of the Door Sticky Note Issue Tracking.

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  • Adrian Howard
    I can t speak for Alastair as to what he meant - but there are at least a few more options: i) There are little to no issues being tracked since they are fixed
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 12, 2013
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      I can't speak for Alastair as to what he meant - but there are at
      least a few more options:

      i) There are little to no issues being tracked since they are fixed on
      discovery. They don't hang around because they are treated as
      stop-the-line problems that need immediate attention.

      ii) There's a sharp line between issues that are "we released
      something that doesn't work as we intended it to work" and everything
      else. Only the former are "bugs" - everything else gets pushed into
      the normal backlog and prioritised accordingly.

      ii) There is no separate bug queue - everything is in a single backlog
      and prioritised accordingly.

      iv) There are little or no issues being tracked since the testers and
      the QA folk work with the rest of the team throughout the development
      process so that bugs get caught and fixed during development, rather
      than afterwards.

      In my experience teams with the low bug counts have some of more of
      the above, along with your (a) where "Magic Happens" == a great
      poly-skilled team that includes testers, product managers and business
      input in combination with a stack of good development practices
      applied well.

      Cheers,

      Adrian

      On 13 March 2013 03:47, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:
      > So Alastair Cockburn <http://alistair.cockburn.us/> came by this furthest
      > corner of the planet and gave refreshing breeze of good sense....
      >
      > But one thing he mentioned, but nobody picked up on, and I had already
      > overused my quota of questions....
      >
      > He said that some places are working with "sticky notes on the back of the
      > door" issue tracking systems.
      >
      > ie. They have so few issues that they can track them in this very low tech
      > manner.
      >
      > I can of course imagine several routes to such a state....
      >
      > a) The Obvious and most Desirable route is Magic Happens, and developers
      > create so few defects there aren't any defects for the testers to find.
      >
      > b) The "lean manufacturing", less desirable, but still sane answer that you
      > balance the number of testers, new feature developers, and defect fixers
      > until the rates of defect injection, discovery and fix are identical. (No
      > queues)
      >
      > c) The even less desirable, but still vaguely sanish answer that when the
      > sticky notes have covered the door... you start throwing away the least
      > important (and rely on the tester's memory that we found that bug before,
      > but threw it away).
      >
      > d) The totally unacceptable route that you have so few / so weak testers
      > that despite an ever growing pool of defects, they aren't finding them.
      >
      > Anybody have any experience of what Alastair was talking about?
      --
      http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
      t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
    • George Dinwiddie
      John, I ve seen a team of ordinary programmers reach the state of frequently shipping zero bugs (even measured after deployment), and quickly taking care of
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 12, 2013
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        John,

        I've seen a team of ordinary programmers reach the state of frequently
        shipping zero bugs (even measured after deployment), and quickly taking
        care of the ones that escaped an iteration. It's not magic.

        - George

        On 3/12/13 11:47 PM, John Carter wrote:
        > So Alastair Cockburn <http://alistair.cockburn.us/> came by this furthest
        > corner of the planet and gave refreshing breeze of good sense....
        >
        > But one thing he mentioned, but nobody picked up on, and I had already
        > overused my quota of questions....
        >
        > He said that some places are working with "sticky notes on the back of the
        > door" issue tracking systems.
        >
        > ie. They have so few issues that they can track them in this very low tech
        > manner.
        >
        > I can of course imagine several routes to such a state....
        >
        > a) The Obvious and most Desirable route is Magic Happens, and developers
        > create so few defects there aren't any defects for the testers to find.
        >
        > b) The "lean manufacturing", less desirable, but still sane answer that you
        > balance the number of testers, new feature developers, and defect fixers
        > until the rates of defect injection, discovery and fix are identical. (No
        > queues)
        >
        > c) The even less desirable, but still vaguely sanish answer that when the
        > sticky notes have covered the door... you start throwing away the least
        > important (and rely on the tester's memory that we found that bug before,
        > but threw it away).
        >
        > d) The totally unacceptable route that you have so few / so weak testers
        > that despite an ever growing pool of defects, they aren't finding them.
        >
        > Anybody have any experience of what Alastair was talking about?
        >
        >
        >

        --
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
        Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
        Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      • John Carter
        On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:20 PM, George Dinwiddie ... This is the Very Interesting Answer which I would like to bring home to the rest of the company.... My
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 12, 2013
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          On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:20 PM, George Dinwiddie
          <lists@...>wrote:

          > I've seen a team of ordinary programmers reach the state of frequently
          > shipping zero bugs (even measured after deployment), and quickly taking
          > care of the ones that escaped an iteration. It's not magic.
          >

          This is the Very Interesting Answer which I would like to bring home to the
          rest of the company....

          My colleagues are quite comfortable with the "lean manufacturing" no queues
          answer, but plain flat out don't believe the "No Defect Magic" answer.

          So I'm looking for data / evidence / stories / books / papers to convince
          them that we could do better.


          --
          John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
          Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
          PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
          New Zealand

          --

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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • George Dinwiddie
          John, ... Do you think that will convince them? It didn t even convince the organization around them. The comment on their first release, when 92% of the
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 12, 2013
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            John,

            On 3/13/13 12:42 AM, John Carter wrote:
            > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:20 PM, George Dinwiddie
            > <lists@...>wrote:
            >
            >> I've seen a team of ordinary programmers reach the state of frequently
            >> shipping zero bugs (even measured after deployment), and quickly taking
            >> care of the ones that escaped an iteration. It's not magic.
            >>
            >
            > This is the Very Interesting Answer which I would like to bring home to the
            > rest of the company....
            >
            > My colleagues are quite comfortable with the "lean manufacturing" no queues
            > answer, but plain flat out don't believe the "No Defect Magic" answer.
            >
            > So I'm looking for data / evidence / stories / books / papers to convince
            > them that we could do better.

            Do you think that will convince them?

            It didn't even convince the organization around them. The comment on
            their first release, when 92% of the release test scripts passed on the
            first attempt, was "they cheated; they tested ahead of time." I think it
            was the second or third release when they hit 100%.

            Yes, they tested, not always automated. They also had a sign on the wall
            that said "Zero bugs, the new normal."

            - George

            --
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
            Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
            Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          • Charlie Poole
            Hi George, Maybe we should just say Yes, we cheated. And we figured out a way to keep cheating, so that tests keep passing. Do you want us to stop? Charlie
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 12, 2013
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              Hi George,

              Maybe we should just say "Yes, we cheated. And we figured out a way to keep
              cheating, so that tests keep passing. Do you want us to stop?"

              Charlie


              On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 9:52 PM, George Dinwiddie
              <lists@...>wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > John,
              >
              > On 3/13/13 12:42 AM, John Carter wrote:
              > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:20 PM, George Dinwiddie
              > > <lists@...>wrote:
              > >
              > >> I've seen a team of ordinary programmers reach the state of frequently
              > >> shipping zero bugs (even measured after deployment), and quickly taking
              > >> care of the ones that escaped an iteration. It's not magic.
              > >>
              > >
              > > This is the Very Interesting Answer which I would like to bring home to
              > the
              > > rest of the company....
              > >
              > > My colleagues are quite comfortable with the "lean manufacturing" no
              > queues
              > > answer, but plain flat out don't believe the "No Defect Magic" answer.
              > >
              > > So I'm looking for data / evidence / stories / books / papers to convince
              > > them that we could do better.
              >
              > Do you think that will convince them?
              >
              > It didn't even convince the organization around them. The comment on
              > their first release, when 92% of the release test scripts passed on the
              > first attempt, was "they cheated; they tested ahead of time." I think it
              > was the second or third release when they hit 100%.
              >
              > Yes, they tested, not always automated. They also had a sign on the wall
              > that said "Zero bugs, the new normal."
              >
              > - George
              >
              > --
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
              > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
              > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ron Jeffries
              Hello, John, ... I have to say that I m a bit surprised to see you asking this question. Alistair s point is that good teams don t have very many defects.
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                Hello, John,

                On Mar 12, 2013, at 11:47 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:

                > a) The Obvious and most Desirable route is Magic Happens, and developers
                > create so few defects there aren't any defects for the testers to find.
                >
                > b) The "lean manufacturing", less desirable, but still sane answer that you
                > balance the number of testers, new feature developers, and defect fixers
                > until the rates of defect injection, discovery and fix are identical. (No
                > queues)
                >
                > c) The even less desirable, but still vaguely sanish answer that when the
                > sticky notes have covered the door... you start throwing away the least
                > important (and rely on the tester's memory that we found that bug before,
                > but threw it away).
                >
                > d) The totally unacceptable route that you have so few / so weak testers
                > that despite an ever growing pool of defects, they aren't finding them.

                I have to say that I'm a bit surprised to see you asking this question.

                Alistair's point is that good teams don't have very many defects. Frankly I don't see why they'd need a whole bloody door.

                The correct option is (a), but it's not done with magic, it's done by being ****ing competent. Let's face it, if developers are creating defects, they are to that extent incompetent.

                The notion included in (b) seems to think that only testers can find defects and only "defect fixers" can fix them. XP and all Agile methods are about cross-functional teams. The team tests, the team finds defects, the team fixes them.

                How do they do that?

                Add testing skill to the development team. One way to do this is to merge the existing testers right in. Clearly the team needs all the necessary skills to develop each feature, yes? Well, if the features are shipping with defects, then clearly the team needs more testing.
                Use Acceptance Test-Driven Development. Each feature's description includes defined and preferably automated tests (checks) of examples of that feature's correct operation. Developers, not being stupid, do not pass code on until it passes all these tests. See the "Three C's" notion. These are "Customer Tests".
                Analyze every defect. When defects arise, figure out how each one occurred. Since you are doing Acceptance Test-Driven Development, it is evident that there is at least one missing test. Write that check, plus all the others that occur to you in light of the missing one. Beef up your overall approach to ATDD, improving how you define new tests. Retrofit old tests as indicated.
                Use Test-Driven Development. Developers write no line of code until they have a failing test asking for that very line of code. These are "Programmer Tests", sometimes called unit tests. As in step 3 above, when defects show up, they also indicate that TDD tests are missing. Write those, learn from it.

                "Won't that take forever, all that testing? We'll never get done!"

                You'll never get done now! Your god-blessed bug database is filling up and your thrice-blessed programmers are piling more dead code on top of the existing dead code. When were you planning to fix all these bugs, in Fixtober, Bugvember, and Defectcember? I'm sorry, those months were cancelled. Better fix them now.

                It takes less time to prevent a defect than to fix it. So invest the time to write the tests before you code, and don't stop coding until the tests work. Voila, bug production drops by an order of magnitude, even if you completely suck at writing tests. If you get good at it, and with all that practice you will get good at it, and it'll drop by another order of magnitude.

                In short, XP.

                This topic, and the answer, has been around a long time. A few articles relating to this subject:

                http://xprogramming.com/articles/which-end-of-the-horse/
                http://xprogramming.com/articles/expcardconversationconfirmation/
                http://xprogramming.com/articles/where-can-we-reduce-quality/
                http://xprogramming.com/blog/discovering-essential-technical-practices/
                http://xprogramming.com/articles/manual-testing-does-exist-and-it-is-bad/
                http://xprogramming.com/articles/kate-oneal-handling-defects/

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor -- Anne Lamott



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • George Dinwiddie
                Charlie, ... Yes, it was amazing to me that anyone would want to treat software release like a pop test. - George -- ... * George Dinwiddie *
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                  Charlie,

                  On 3/13/13 1:57 AM, Charlie Poole wrote:
                  > Hi George,
                  >
                  > Maybe we should just say "Yes, we cheated. And we figured out a way to keep
                  > cheating, so that tests keep passing. Do you want us to stop?"

                  Yes, it was amazing to me that anyone would want to treat software
                  release like a pop test.

                  - George

                  --
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                  Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                  Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                • steveropa
                  I had the same experience, and it actually got me laid off. Our team was consistently producing zero bugs, or if something did escape, it was so small and
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                    I had the same experience, and it actually got me laid off. Our team was consistently producing zero bugs, or if something did escape, it was so small and taken care of so quickly that it didn’t register in some system. Our customers were delighted, but our organization felt that we weren’t devoting enough time to fixing bugs, thus we were doing something wrong.



                    When the layoffs came, I was on the block since I clearly wasn't managing the team effectively anyway. I guess since I wasn’t really “managing” the team but supporting it, they were right.



                    Steve



                    Sent from Windows Mail


                    From: George Dinwiddie
                    Sent: ‎March‎ ‎12‎, ‎2013 ‎10‎:‎52‎ ‎PM
                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [XP] Back of the Door Sticky Note Issue Tracking.






                    John,

                    On 3/13/13 12:42 AM, John Carter wrote:
                    > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:20 PM, George Dinwiddie
                    > <lists@...>wrote:
                    >
                    >> I've seen a team of ordinary programmers reach the state of frequently
                    >> shipping zero bugs (even measured after deployment), and quickly taking
                    >> care of the ones that escaped an iteration. It's not magic.
                    >>
                    >
                    > This is the Very Interesting Answer which I would like to bring home to the
                    > rest of the company....
                    >
                    > My colleagues are quite comfortable with the "lean manufacturing" no queues
                    > answer, but plain flat out don't believe the "No Defect Magic" answer.
                    >
                    > So I'm looking for data / evidence / stories / books / papers to convince
                    > them that we could do better.

                    Do you think that will convince them?

                    It didn't even convince the organization around them. The comment on
                    their first release, when 92% of the release test scripts passed on the
                    first attempt, was "they cheated; they tested ahead of time." I think it
                    was the second or third release when they hit 100%.

                    Yes, they tested, not always automated. They also had a sign on the wall
                    that said "Zero bugs, the new normal."

                    - George

                    --
                    ----------------------------------------------------------
                    * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                    Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                    Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                    ----------------------------------------------------------





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ron Jeffries
                    Hi Steve, ... This sounds like a communication problem to me ... was it? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com If another does not intend offense, it is wrong for
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                      Hi Steve,

                      On Mar 13, 2013, at 10:19 AM, <steveropa@...> wrote:

                      > I had the same experience, and it actually got me laid off. Our team was consistently producing zero bugs, or if something did escape, it was so small and taken care of so quickly that it didn�t register in some system. Our customers were delighted, but our organization felt that we weren�t devoting enough time to fixing bugs, thus we were doing something wrong.
                      >
                      > When the layoffs came, I was on the block since I clearly wasn't managing the team effectively anyway. I guess since I wasn�t really �managing� the team but supporting it, they were right.


                      This sounds like a communication problem to me ... was it?

                      Ron Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      If another does not intend offense, it is wrong for me to seek it;
                      if another does indeed intend offense, it is foolish for me to permit it.
                      -- Kelly Easterley



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Curtis Cooley
                      ... Or his organization was so dysfunctional he really won the layoff lottery. -- ... Curtis Cooley curtis@industriallogic.com [Non-text portions of this
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                        On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                        > Hi Steve,
                        >
                        > On Mar 13, 2013, at 10:19 AM, <steveropa@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > I had the same experience, and it actually got me laid off. Our team was
                        > consistently producing zero bugs, or if something did escape, it was so
                        > small and taken care of so quickly that it didn�t register in some system.
                        > Our customers were delighted, but our organization felt that we weren�t
                        > devoting enough time to fixing bugs, thus we were doing something wrong.
                        > >
                        > > When the layoffs came, I was on the block since I clearly wasn't
                        > managing the team effectively anyway. I guess since I wasn�t really
                        > �managing� the team but supporting it, they were right.
                        >
                        >
                        > This sounds like a communication problem to me ... was it?
                        >

                        Or his organization was so dysfunctional he really won the layoff lottery.
                        --
                        --------------------------------------
                        Curtis Cooley
                        curtis@...


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michal Svoboda
                        ... Hi, ... as if there were other kinds of problems. ;-)
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                          Ron Jeffries wrote:
                          > This sounds like a communication problem to me ... was it?

                          Hi,

                          ... as if there were other kinds of problems. ;-)
                        • Ron Jeffries
                          Hi Michal, ... Oh, there are. Like if the team doesn t know how to write code that works, and tests that demonstrate that fact. Of course one could argue that
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Michal,

                            On Mar 13, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Michal Svoboda <pht@...> wrote:

                            > ... as if there were other kinds of problems. ;-)


                            Oh, there are. Like if the team doesn't know how to write code that works, and tests that demonstrate that fact.

                            Of course one could argue that someone needs to communicate to them how to do that � but surely no one here would try that quibble. :)

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            If another does not intend offense, it is wrong for me to seek it;
                            if another does indeed intend offense, it is foolish for me to permit it.
                            -- Kelly Easterley



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Steve Smith
                            I m not sure who said it first (it wasn t me), but I like the quote: If you have a process that is producing defects, then you have a defective process.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                              I'm not sure who said it first (it wasn't me), but I like the quote:
                              "If you have a process that is producing defects, then you have a defective
                              process."

                              Steve



                              On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:35 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello, John,
                              >
                              >
                              > On Mar 12, 2013, at 11:47 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > a) The Obvious and most Desirable route is Magic Happens, and developers
                              > > create so few defects there aren't any defects for the testers to find.
                              > >
                              > > b) The "lean manufacturing", less desirable, but still sane answer that
                              > you
                              > > balance the number of testers, new feature developers, and defect fixers
                              > > until the rates of defect injection, discovery and fix are identical. (No
                              > > queues)
                              > >
                              > > c) The even less desirable, but still vaguely sanish answer that when the
                              > > sticky notes have covered the door... you start throwing away the least
                              > > important (and rely on the tester's memory that we found that bug before,
                              > > but threw it away).
                              > >
                              > > d) The totally unacceptable route that you have so few / so weak testers
                              > > that despite an ever growing pool of defects, they aren't finding them.
                              >
                              > I have to say that I'm a bit surprised to see you asking this question.
                              >
                              > Alistair's point is that good teams don't have very many defects. Frankly
                              > I don't see why they'd need a whole bloody door.
                              >
                              > The correct option is (a), but it's not done with magic, it's done by
                              > being ****ing competent. Let's face it, if developers are creating defects,
                              > they are to that extent incompetent.
                              >
                              > The notion included in (b) seems to think that only testers can find
                              > defects and only "defect fixers" can fix them. XP and all Agile methods are
                              > about cross-functional teams. The team tests, the team finds defects, the
                              > team fixes them.
                              >
                              > How do they do that?
                              >
                              > Add testing skill to the development team. One way to do this is to merge
                              > the existing testers right in. Clearly the team needs all the necessary
                              > skills to develop each feature, yes? Well, if the features are shipping
                              > with defects, then clearly the team needs more testing.
                              > Use Acceptance Test-Driven Development. Each feature's description
                              > includes defined and preferably automated tests (checks) of examples of
                              > that feature's correct operation. Developers, not being stupid, do not pass
                              > code on until it passes all these tests. See the "Three C's" notion. These
                              > are "Customer Tests".
                              > Analyze every defect. When defects arise, figure out how each one
                              > occurred. Since you are doing Acceptance Test-Driven Development, it is
                              > evident that there is at least one missing test. Write that check, plus all
                              > the others that occur to you in light of the missing one. Beef up your
                              > overall approach to ATDD, improving how you define new tests. Retrofit old
                              > tests as indicated.
                              > Use Test-Driven Development. Developers write no line of code until they
                              > have a failing test asking for that very line of code. These are
                              > "Programmer Tests", sometimes called unit tests. As in step 3 above, when
                              > defects show up, they also indicate that TDD tests are missing. Write
                              > those, learn from it.
                              >
                              > "Won't that take forever, all that testing? We'll never get done!"
                              >
                              > You'll never get done now! Your god-blessed bug database is filling up and
                              > your thrice-blessed programmers are piling more dead code on top of the
                              > existing dead code. When were you planning to fix all these bugs, in
                              > Fixtober, Bugvember, and Defectcember? I'm sorry, those months were
                              > cancelled. Better fix them now.
                              >
                              > It takes less time to prevent a defect than to fix it. So invest the time
                              > to write the tests before you code, and don't stop coding until the tests
                              > work. Voila, bug production drops by an order of magnitude, even if you
                              > completely suck at writing tests. If you get good at it, and with all that
                              > practice you will get good at it, and it'll drop by another order of
                              > magnitude.
                              >
                              > In short, XP.
                              >
                              > This topic, and the answer, has been around a long time. A few articles
                              > relating to this subject:
                              >
                              > http://xprogramming.com/articles/which-end-of-the-horse/
                              > http://xprogramming.com/articles/expcardconversationconfirmation/
                              > http://xprogramming.com/articles/where-can-we-reduce-quality/
                              > http://xprogramming.com/blog/discovering-essential-technical-practices/
                              > http://xprogramming.com/articles/manual-testing-does-exist-and-it-is-bad/
                              > http://xprogramming.com/articles/kate-oneal-handling-defects/
                              >
                              > Ron Jeffries
                              > www.XProgramming.com
                              > Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor -- Anne Lamott
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              --
                              Steve Smith
                              http://Ardalis.com/
                              http://twitter.com/ardalis


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Keith Ray
                              Can I quote you on that ? (Twitter) C. Keith Ray http://agilesolutionspace.blogspot.com/ twitter: @ckeithray
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                                Can I quote you on that ? (Twitter)

                                C. Keith Ray
                                http://agilesolutionspace.blogspot.com/
                                twitter: @ckeithray


                                On Mar 13, 2013, at 11:14 AM, Steve Smith <ssmith.lists@...> wrote:

                                > I'm not sure who said it first (it wasn't me), but I like the quote:
                                > "If you have a process that is producing defects, then you have a defective
                                > process."
                                >
                                > Steve
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:35 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >> **
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> Hello, John,
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> On Mar 12, 2013, at 11:47 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >>> a) The Obvious and most Desirable route is Magic Happens, and developers
                                >>> create so few defects there aren't any defects for the testers to find.
                                >>>
                                >>> b) The "lean manufacturing", less desirable, but still sane answer that
                                >> you
                                >>> balance the number of testers, new feature developers, and defect fixers
                                >>> until the rates of defect injection, discovery and fix are identical. (No
                                >>> queues)
                                >>>
                                >>> c) The even less desirable, but still vaguely sanish answer that when the
                                >>> sticky notes have covered the door... you start throwing away the least
                                >>> important (and rely on the tester's memory that we found that bug before,
                                >>> but threw it away).
                                >>>
                                >>> d) The totally unacceptable route that you have so few / so weak testers
                                >>> that despite an ever growing pool of defects, they aren't finding them.
                                >>
                                >> I have to say that I'm a bit surprised to see you asking this question.
                                >>
                                >> Alistair's point is that good teams don't have very many defects. Frankly
                                >> I don't see why they'd need a whole bloody door.
                                >>
                                >> The correct option is (a), but it's not done with magic, it's done by
                                >> being ****ing competent. Let's face it, if developers are creating defects,
                                >> they are to that extent incompetent.
                                >>
                                >> The notion included in (b) seems to think that only testers can find
                                >> defects and only "defect fixers" can fix them. XP and all Agile methods are
                                >> about cross-functional teams. The team tests, the team finds defects, the
                                >> team fixes them.
                                >>
                                >> How do they do that?
                                >>
                                >> Add testing skill to the development team. One way to do this is to merge
                                >> the existing testers right in. Clearly the team needs all the necessary
                                >> skills to develop each feature, yes? Well, if the features are shipping
                                >> with defects, then clearly the team needs more testing.
                                >> Use Acceptance Test-Driven Development. Each feature's description
                                >> includes defined and preferably automated tests (checks) of examples of
                                >> that feature's correct operation. Developers, not being stupid, do not pass
                                >> code on until it passes all these tests. See the "Three C's" notion. These
                                >> are "Customer Tests".
                                >> Analyze every defect. When defects arise, figure out how each one
                                >> occurred. Since you are doing Acceptance Test-Driven Development, it is
                                >> evident that there is at least one missing test. Write that check, plus all
                                >> the others that occur to you in light of the missing one. Beef up your
                                >> overall approach to ATDD, improving how you define new tests. Retrofit old
                                >> tests as indicated.
                                >> Use Test-Driven Development. Developers write no line of code until they
                                >> have a failing test asking for that very line of code. These are
                                >> "Programmer Tests", sometimes called unit tests. As in step 3 above, when
                                >> defects show up, they also indicate that TDD tests are missing. Write
                                >> those, learn from it.
                                >>
                                >> "Won't that take forever, all that testing? We'll never get done!"
                                >>
                                >> You'll never get done now! Your god-blessed bug database is filling up and
                                >> your thrice-blessed programmers are piling more dead code on top of the
                                >> existing dead code. When were you planning to fix all these bugs, in
                                >> Fixtober, Bugvember, and Defectcember? I'm sorry, those months were
                                >> cancelled. Better fix them now.
                                >>
                                >> It takes less time to prevent a defect than to fix it. So invest the time
                                >> to write the tests before you code, and don't stop coding until the tests
                                >> work. Voila, bug production drops by an order of magnitude, even if you
                                >> completely suck at writing tests. If you get good at it, and with all that
                                >> practice you will get good at it, and it'll drop by another order of
                                >> magnitude.
                                >>
                                >> In short, XP.
                                >>
                                >> This topic, and the answer, has been around a long time. A few articles
                                >> relating to this subject:
                                >>
                                >> http://xprogramming.com/articles/which-end-of-the-horse/
                                >> http://xprogramming.com/articles/expcardconversationconfirmation/
                                >> http://xprogramming.com/articles/where-can-we-reduce-quality/
                                >> http://xprogramming.com/blog/discovering-essential-technical-practices/
                                >> http://xprogramming.com/articles/manual-testing-does-exist-and-it-is-bad/
                                >> http://xprogramming.com/articles/kate-oneal-handling-defects/
                                >>
                                >> Ron Jeffries
                                >> www.XProgramming.com
                                >> Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor -- Anne Lamott
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > Steve Smith
                                > http://Ardalis.com/
                                > http://twitter.com/ardalis
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                >
                                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                >
                                > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Steven Gordon
                                ... A dangerous quote - it is people who do or do not produce defects. Processes can only help or hinder. A process that attempts to make it impossible for
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                                  On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Steve Smith <ssmith.lists@...>wrote:

                                  > I'm not sure who said it first (it wasn't me), but I like the quote:
                                  > "If you have a process that is producing defects, then you have a defective
                                  > process."
                                  >
                                  > Steve
                                  >
                                  >
                                  A dangerous quote - it is people who do or do not produce defects.
                                  Processes can only help or hinder.

                                  A process that attempts to make it impossible for people to produce defects
                                  would be too prescriptive to be efficient or to produce learning or
                                  innovation. We would all much prefer a process that facilitates people
                                  learning to get better, but then such a process would allow defects along
                                  the way.

                                  SteveG


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Ron Jeffries
                                  Hi Steven, ... Could you perhaps phrase this idea in such a way as to do two things that this does not: First, offer advice on what one might do, rather than
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                                    Hi Steven,

                                    On Mar 13, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:

                                    > A process that attempts to make it impossible for people to produce defects
                                    > would be too prescriptive to be efficient or to produce learning or
                                    > innovation. We would all much prefer a process that facilitates people
                                    > learning to get better, but then such a process would allow defects along
                                    > the way.


                                    Could you perhaps phrase this idea in such a way as to do two things that this does not:

                                    First, offer advice on what one might do, rather than on what one ought not do, and, second, offer advice that tends to lead to a continuing reduction of defects?

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    I have two cats, and a big house full of cat stuff.
                                    The cats fight and divide up the house, messing up their own lives.
                                    Nice work cats.
                                    Meow.



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • John Carter
                                    ... Problems found later became a (possibly high priority) story. That is effectively, although perhaps not consciously, the lean manufacturing route. ie.
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                                      On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:07 PM, Charlie Poole <charliepoole@...>wrote:

                                      > Problems found when a story was initially believed to be finished either
                                      > meant the story wasn't finished or that a new story had to be written.
                                      >
                                      Problems found later became a (possibly high priority) story.


                                      That is effectively, although perhaps not consciously, the "lean
                                      manufacturing" route.

                                      ie. Throttle the rate of defect injection / increase defect fix to match
                                      that of defect discovery.

                                      ie. No queues.


                                      > > b) The "lean manufacturing", less desirable, but still sane answer that
                                      > you
                                      > > balance the number of testers, new feature developers, and defect fixers
                                      > > until the rates of defect injection, discovery and fix are identical. (No
                                      > > queues)
                                      >




                                      --
                                      John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
                                      Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
                                      PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@...
                                      New Zealand

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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Steve Smith
                                      One might try to create an uber-prescriptive process that makes defects impossible - and it might be successful, in that it might prevent any work at all from
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                                        One might try to create an uber-prescriptive process that makes defects
                                        impossible - and it might be successful, in that it might prevent any work
                                        at all from getting done (but hey, zero bugs!). I think we both agree that
                                        a more appropriate process is one that is more flexible and adaptable and
                                        lets the people involved (whom I agree are the most important part) do the
                                        right things to prevent shipping defects. Of course mistakes and learning
                                        will happen - the process should simply encourage this kind of learning and
                                        improving the process to prevent defects from shipping (and to prevent
                                        known defects from recurring).

                                        Steve



                                        On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:

                                        > **
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Steve Smith <ssmith.lists@...
                                        > >wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > I'm not sure who said it first (it wasn't me), but I like the quote:
                                        > > "If you have a process that is producing defects, then you have a
                                        > defective
                                        > > process."
                                        > >
                                        > > Steve
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > A dangerous quote - it is people who do or do not produce defects.
                                        > Processes can only help or hinder.
                                        >
                                        > A process that attempts to make it impossible for people to produce defects
                                        > would be too prescriptive to be efficient or to produce learning or
                                        > innovation. We would all much prefer a process that facilitates people
                                        > learning to get better, but then such a process would allow defects along
                                        > the way.
                                        >
                                        > SteveG
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >



                                        --
                                        Steve Smith
                                        http://Ardalis.com/
                                        http://twitter.com/ardalis


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Steve Smith
                                        Sure, I m @ardalis and I actually tweeted it myself right after posting this... :) ... -- Steve Smith http://Ardalis.com/ http://twitter.com/ardalis [Non-text
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                                          Sure, I'm @ardalis and I actually tweeted it myself right after posting
                                          this... :)


                                          On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Keith Ray <keith.ray@...> wrote:

                                          > **
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Can I quote you on that ? (Twitter)
                                          >
                                          > C. Keith Ray
                                          > http://agilesolutionspace.blogspot.com/
                                          > twitter: @ckeithray
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Mar 13, 2013, at 11:14 AM, Steve Smith <ssmith.lists@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > I'm not sure who said it first (it wasn't me), but I like the quote:
                                          > > "If you have a process that is producing defects, then you have a
                                          > defective
                                          > > process."
                                          > >
                                          > > Steve
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:35 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >> **
                                          >
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >> Hello, John,
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >> On Mar 12, 2013, at 11:47 PM, John Carter <john.carter@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >>
                                          > >>> a) The Obvious and most Desirable route is Magic Happens, and
                                          > developers
                                          > >>> create so few defects there aren't any defects for the testers to find.
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>> b) The "lean manufacturing", less desirable, but still sane answer that
                                          > >> you
                                          > >>> balance the number of testers, new feature developers, and defect
                                          > fixers
                                          > >>> until the rates of defect injection, discovery and fix are identical.
                                          > (No
                                          > >>> queues)
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>> c) The even less desirable, but still vaguely sanish answer that when
                                          > the
                                          > >>> sticky notes have covered the door... you start throwing away the least
                                          > >>> important (and rely on the tester's memory that we found that bug
                                          > before,
                                          > >>> but threw it away).
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>> d) The totally unacceptable route that you have so few / so weak
                                          > testers
                                          > >>> that despite an ever growing pool of defects, they aren't finding them.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> I have to say that I'm a bit surprised to see you asking this question.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> Alistair's point is that good teams don't have very many defects.
                                          > Frankly
                                          > >> I don't see why they'd need a whole bloody door.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> The correct option is (a), but it's not done with magic, it's done by
                                          > >> being ****ing competent. Let's face it, if developers are creating
                                          > defects,
                                          > >> they are to that extent incompetent.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> The notion included in (b) seems to think that only testers can find
                                          > >> defects and only "defect fixers" can fix them. XP and all Agile methods
                                          > are
                                          > >> about cross-functional teams. The team tests, the team finds defects,
                                          > the
                                          > >> team fixes them.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> How do they do that?
                                          > >>
                                          > >> Add testing skill to the development team. One way to do this is to
                                          > merge
                                          > >> the existing testers right in. Clearly the team needs all the necessary
                                          > >> skills to develop each feature, yes? Well, if the features are shipping
                                          > >> with defects, then clearly the team needs more testing.
                                          > >> Use Acceptance Test-Driven Development. Each feature's description
                                          > >> includes defined and preferably automated tests (checks) of examples of
                                          > >> that feature's correct operation. Developers, not being stupid, do not
                                          > pass
                                          > >> code on until it passes all these tests. See the "Three C's" notion.
                                          > These
                                          > >> are "Customer Tests".
                                          > >> Analyze every defect. When defects arise, figure out how each one
                                          > >> occurred. Since you are doing Acceptance Test-Driven Development, it is
                                          > >> evident that there is at least one missing test. Write that check, plus
                                          > all
                                          > >> the others that occur to you in light of the missing one. Beef up your
                                          > >> overall approach to ATDD, improving how you define new tests. Retrofit
                                          > old
                                          > >> tests as indicated.
                                          > >> Use Test-Driven Development. Developers write no line of code until they
                                          > >> have a failing test asking for that very line of code. These are
                                          > >> "Programmer Tests", sometimes called unit tests. As in step 3 above,
                                          > when
                                          > >> defects show up, they also indicate that TDD tests are missing. Write
                                          > >> those, learn from it.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> "Won't that take forever, all that testing? We'll never get done!"
                                          > >>
                                          > >> You'll never get done now! Your god-blessed bug database is filling up
                                          > and
                                          > >> your thrice-blessed programmers are piling more dead code on top of the
                                          > >> existing dead code. When were you planning to fix all these bugs, in
                                          > >> Fixtober, Bugvember, and Defectcember? I'm sorry, those months were
                                          > >> cancelled. Better fix them now.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> It takes less time to prevent a defect than to fix it. So invest the
                                          > time
                                          > >> to write the tests before you code, and don't stop coding until the
                                          > tests
                                          > >> work. Voila, bug production drops by an order of magnitude, even if you
                                          > >> completely suck at writing tests. If you get good at it, and with all
                                          > that
                                          > >> practice you will get good at it, and it'll drop by another order of
                                          > >> magnitude.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> In short, XP.
                                          > >>
                                          > >> This topic, and the answer, has been around a long time. A few articles
                                          > >> relating to this subject:
                                          > >>
                                          > >> http://xprogramming.com/articles/which-end-of-the-horse/
                                          > >> http://xprogramming.com/articles/expcardconversationconfirmation/
                                          > >> http://xprogramming.com/articles/where-can-we-reduce-quality/
                                          > >> http://xprogramming.com/blog/discovering-essential-technical-practices/
                                          > >>
                                          > http://xprogramming.com/articles/manual-testing-does-exist-and-it-is-bad/
                                          > >> http://xprogramming.com/articles/kate-oneal-handling-defects/
                                          > >>
                                          > >> Ron Jeffries
                                          > >> www.XProgramming.com
                                          > >> Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor -- Anne Lamott
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --
                                          > > Steve Smith
                                          > > http://Ardalis.com/
                                          > > http://twitter.com/ardalis
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                          > >
                                          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                          > >
                                          > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >



                                          --
                                          Steve Smith
                                          http://Ardalis.com/
                                          http://twitter.com/ardalis


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Steven Gordon
                                          ... I would agree with offering advice, but I would prefer not to prescribe it. In practice, teams generally follow said advice much better if they own it. ...
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                                            On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                                            > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hi Steven,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Mar 13, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > A process that attempts to make it impossible for people to produce
                                            > defects
                                            > > would be too prescriptive to be efficient or to produce learning or
                                            > > innovation. We would all much prefer a process that facilitates people
                                            > > learning to get better, but then such a process would allow defects along
                                            > > the way.
                                            >
                                            > Could you perhaps phrase this idea in such a way as to do two things that
                                            > this does not:
                                            >
                                            > First, offer advice on what one might do, rather than on what one ought
                                            > not do, and, second, offer advice that tends to lead to a continuing
                                            > reduction of defects?
                                            >

                                            I would agree with offering advice, but I would prefer not to prescribe it.
                                            In practice, teams generally follow said advice much better if they own it.


                                            >
                                            > Ron Jeffries
                                            > www.XProgramming.com
                                            > I have two cats, and a big house full of cat stuff.
                                            > The cats fight and divide up the house, messing up their own lives.
                                            > Nice work cats.
                                            > Meow.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Michal Svoboda
                                            ... Fair enough. But I would say that s a natural occurrence, or imperfection if you will. No-one is born with coding skills, we all learn. Now if or how big
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Mar 13, 2013
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                                              Ron Jeffries wrote:
                                              > > ... as if there were other kinds of problems. ;-)
                                              > Oh, there are. Like if the team doesn't know how to write code that
                                              > works, and tests that demonstrate that fact.

                                              Fair enough. But I would say that's a natural occurrence, or imperfection
                                              if you will. No-one is born with coding skills, we all learn.

                                              Now if or how big this is a problem, depends on communication. If I don't
                                              talk about it or they don't listen, then problem grows. So I observe that
                                              problems in communication are able to create proportionally greater
                                              disasters than anything else.

                                              Michal Svoboda
                                            • Kay A Pentecost
                                              +1 ... magic.
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Mar 14, 2013
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                                                +1

                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                                > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
                                                > Poole
                                                > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 1:58 AM
                                                > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: Re: [XP] Back of the Door Sticky Note Issue Tracking.
                                                >
                                                > Hi George,
                                                >
                                                > Maybe we should just say "Yes, we cheated. And we figured out a way to
                                                > keep cheating, so that tests keep passing. Do you want us to stop?"
                                                >
                                                > Charlie
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 9:52 PM, George Dinwiddie
                                                > <lists@...>wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > **
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > John,
                                                > >
                                                > > On 3/13/13 12:42 AM, John Carter wrote:
                                                > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:20 PM, George Dinwiddie
                                                > > > <lists@...>wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > >> I've seen a team of ordinary programmers reach the state of
                                                > > >> frequently shipping zero bugs (even measured after deployment), and
                                                > > >> quickly taking care of the ones that escaped an iteration. It's not
                                                magic.
                                                > > >>
                                                > > >
                                                > > > This is the Very Interesting Answer which I would like to bring home
                                                > > > to
                                                > > the
                                                > > > rest of the company....
                                                > > >
                                                > > > My colleagues are quite comfortable with the "lean manufacturing" no
                                                > > queues
                                                > > > answer, but plain flat out don't believe the "No Defect Magic" answer.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > So I'm looking for data / evidence / stories / books / papers to
                                                > > > convince them that we could do better.
                                                > >
                                                > > Do you think that will convince them?
                                                > >
                                                > > It didn't even convince the organization around them. The comment on
                                                > > their first release, when 92% of the release test scripts passed on
                                                > > the first attempt, was "they cheated; they tested ahead of time." I
                                                > > think it was the second or third release when they hit 100%.
                                                > >
                                                > > Yes, they tested, not always automated. They also had a sign on the
                                                > > wall that said "Zero bugs, the new normal."
                                                > >
                                                > > - George
                                                > >
                                                > > --
                                                > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                                > > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com Software Development
                                                > > http://www.idiacomputing.com Consultant and Coach
                                                > > http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                                > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
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                                                >
                                                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                                >
                                                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-
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