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Benefits of automated builds and continuous integration

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  • JackM
    Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of automating the builds and continuous integration. Perhaps there s a good white paper on this topic.
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 28, 2013
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      Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of automating the builds and continuous integration.

      Perhaps there's a good white paper on this topic.

      I don't need to be convinced, but trying to make a case to our VP on doing this first rather than working on new features.

      We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run and often times the build fails due to unit test failures.

      We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours from 3 or 4 days.

      Just hard to quantify the benefits.

      Thanks
      jack
    • Dossy Shiobara
      You d be able to release every day, instead of every 3-4 days. That s pretty easy to quantify ... ... -- Dossy Shiobara | He realized the fastest
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 28, 2013
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        You'd be able to release every day, instead of every 3-4 days.

        That's pretty easy to quantify ...


        On 1/28/13 8:32 PM, JackM wrote:
        > We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours from 3 or 4 days.
        >
        > Just hard to quantify the benefits.

        --
        Dossy Shiobara | "He realized the fastest way to change
        dossy@... | is to laugh at your own folly -- then you
        http://panoptic.com/ | can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
        * WordPress * jQuery * MySQL * Security * Business Continuity *
      • Charlie Poole
        Hi Jack, I realize this answer will be of approximately zero help to you, but somebody ought to say it... If it takes permission from a VP to tune your team s
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 28, 2013
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          Hi Jack,

          I realize this answer will be of approximately zero help to you, but
          somebody ought
          to say it...

          If it takes permission from a VP to tune your team's process, you've just
          identified
          the biggest problem you have. :-)

          Charlie


          On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:32 PM, JackM <jack@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of automating the
          > builds and continuous integration.
          >
          > Perhaps there's a good white paper on this topic.
          >
          > I don't need to be convinced, but trying to make a case to our VP on doing
          > this first rather than working on new features.
          >
          > We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run and
          > often times the build fails due to unit test failures.
          >
          > We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours from 3
          > or 4 days.
          >
          > Just hard to quantify the benefits.
          >
          > Thanks
          > jack
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ron Jeffries
          How much time is spent now screwing with the build? Convert that to a percentage and compute how many features it s worth. R ... Ron Jeffries
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 28, 2013
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            How much time is spent now screwing with the build? Convert that to a percentage and compute how many features it's worth.

            R
            On Jan 28, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "JackM" <jack@...> wrote:

            > We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run and often times the build fails due to unit test failures.


            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            If it is more than you need, it is waste. -- Andy Seidl



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Adam Sroka
            This is not the answer you want, but I think it is a bad idea for you to stop delivering features to improve the build, and if I were your VP I would not let
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 28, 2013
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              This is not the answer you want, but I think it is a bad idea for you to
              stop delivering features to improve the build, and if I were your VP I
              would not let you either.

              You need to build a culture of continually improving your automation to
              make it faster and easier to use. Otherwise, you're going to be right back
              where you are in a few months asking for another chance to stop and fix it.

              I suspect the tests you are writing are not really microtests, and that is
              a big part of the problem. I could recommend some resources to help you
              learn how to write faster tests if you'd like.


              On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:32 PM, JackM <jack@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of automating the
              > builds and continuous integration.
              >
              > Perhaps there's a good white paper on this topic.
              >
              > I don't need to be convinced, but trying to make a case to our VP on doing
              > this first rather than working on new features.
              >
              > We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run and
              > often times the build fails due to unit test failures.
              >
              > We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours from 3
              > or 4 days.
              >
              > Just hard to quantify the benefits.
              >
              > Thanks
              > jack
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Steven Smith
              Agreed, speeding up your tests seems like a definite requirement. Also work on making it easy for anybody to kick off the build from their machine via a batch
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 28, 2013
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                Agreed, speeding up your tests seems like a definite requirement. Also
                work on making it easy for anybody to kick off the build from their machine
                via a batch file or script as an interim step. If you get that working,
                implementing CI should be trivial and should take less time than the
                conversation with the VP would take.

                Steve

                On Monday, January 28, 2013, Adam Sroka wrote:

                > This is not the answer you want, but I think it is a bad idea for you to
                > stop delivering features to improve the build, and if I were your VP I
                > would not let you either.
                >
                > You need to build a culture of continually improving your automation to
                > make it faster and easier to use. Otherwise, you're going to be right back
                > where you are in a few months asking for another chance to stop and fix it.
                >
                > I suspect the tests you are writing are not really microtests, and that is
                > a big part of the problem. I could recommend some resources to help you
                > learn how to write faster tests if you'd like.
                >
                >
                > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:32 PM, JackM <jack@... <javascript:;>>
                > wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of automating
                > the
                > > builds and continuous integration.
                > >
                > > Perhaps there's a good white paper on this topic.
                > >
                > > I don't need to be convinced, but trying to make a case to our VP on
                > doing
                > > this first rather than working on new features.
                > >
                > > We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run and
                > > often times the build fails due to unit test failures.
                > >
                > > We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours from 3
                > > or 4 days.
                > >
                > > Just hard to quantify the benefits.
                > >
                > > Thanks
                > > jack
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                >
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                >
                > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Steve Smith
                http://Ardalis.com/
                http://twitter.com/ardalis


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • JackM
                Hi Adam, I would appreciate if you could recommend some resources on how to write faster tests. Thanks jack
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 29, 2013
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                  Hi Adam,

                  I would appreciate if you could recommend some resources on how to write faster tests.

                  Thanks
                  jack

                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka wrote:
                  >
                  > This is not the answer you want, but I think it is a bad idea for you to
                  > stop delivering features to improve the build, and if I were your VP I
                  > would not let you either.
                  >
                  > You need to build a culture of continually improving your automation to
                  > make it faster and easier to use. Otherwise, you're going to be right back
                  > where you are in a few months asking for another chance to stop and fix it.
                  >
                  > I suspect the tests you are writing are not really microtests, and that is
                  > a big part of the problem. I could recommend some resources to help you
                  > learn how to write faster tests if you'd like.
                  >
                  >
                  > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:32 PM, JackM wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of automating the
                  > > builds and continuous integration.
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps there's a good white paper on this topic.
                  > >
                  > > I don't need to be convinced, but trying to make a case to our VP on doing
                  > > this first rather than working on new features.
                  > >
                  > > We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run and
                  > > often times the build fails due to unit test failures.
                  > >
                  > > We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours from 3
                  > > or 4 days.
                  > >
                  > > Just hard to quantify the benefits.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks
                  > > jack
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • M. Manca
                  ... I agree. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 29, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Il 29/01/2013 02:44, Charlie Poole ha scritto:
                    > Hi Jack,
                    >
                    > I realize this answer will be of approximately zero help to you, but
                    > somebody ought
                    > to say it...
                    >
                    > If it takes permission from a VP to tune your team's process, you've just
                    > identified
                    > the biggest problem you have. :-)
                    I agree.
                    >
                    > Charlie
                    >
                    >
                    > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:32 PM, JackM <jack@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> **
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of automating the
                    >> builds and continuous integration.
                    >>
                    >> Perhaps there's a good white paper on this topic.
                    >>
                    >> I don't need to be convinced, but trying to make a case to our VP on doing
                    >> this first rather than working on new features.
                    >>
                    >> We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run and
                    >> often times the build fails due to unit test failures.
                    >>
                    >> We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours from 3
                    >> or 4 days.
                    >>
                    >> Just hard to quantify the benefits.
                    >>
                    >> Thanks
                    >> jack
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • M. Manca
                    ... I think this could be useful in general not only in this particular case so in my opinion if you may post something about will be appreciated. ...
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 29, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Il 29/01/2013 03:48, Adam Sroka ha scritto:
                      > This is not the answer you want, but I think it is a bad idea for you to
                      > stop delivering features to improve the build, and if I were your VP I
                      > would not let you either.
                      >
                      > You need to build a culture of continually improving your automation to
                      > make it faster and easier to use. Otherwise, you're going to be right back
                      > where you are in a few months asking for another chance to stop and fix it.
                      >
                      > I suspect the tests you are writing are not really microtests, and that is
                      > a big part of the problem. I could recommend some resources to help you
                      > learn how to write faster tests if you'd like.
                      I think this could be useful in general not only in this particular case
                      so in my opinion if you may post something about will be appreciated.
                      >
                      >
                      > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:32 PM, JackM <jack@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> **
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of automating the
                      >> builds and continuous integration.
                      >>
                      >> Perhaps there's a good white paper on this topic.
                      >>
                      >> I don't need to be convinced, but trying to make a case to our VP on doing
                      >> this first rather than working on new features.
                      >>
                      >> We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run and
                      >> often times the build fails due to unit test failures.
                      >>
                      >> We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours from 3
                      >> or 4 days.
                      >>
                      >> Just hard to quantify the benefits.
                      >>
                      >> Thanks
                      >> jack
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Steven Smith
                      The single biggest reason for tests to be slow is that they are using too much infrastructure. Make sure you are decoupling your systems and are able to test
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 29, 2013
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                        The single biggest reason for tests to be slow is that they are using too
                        much infrastructure. Make sure you are decoupling your systems and are
                        able to test them as small units, without a database, file system, or other
                        dependencies involved. True unit tests (some call these micro tests)
                        should be able to run on the order of 1000 per second. If you have so many
                        tests of this kind that your build is taking hours, then you must have some
                        amazing test coverage or a truly massive application.

                        Also, it's not a bad idea to separate fast tests from slow tests. In my
                        projects, this usually looks like "Unit Tests" and "Integration Tests",
                        with the latter testing things like round-tripping to a database, etc. You
                        should have lots more of the former than the latter tests, but of course
                        the latter ones are also valuable.

                        In terms of resources, I have some articles on my blog about dependencies
                        and how to avoid them (ardalis.com). Also there is some great content on
                        testing, and many other things, at Pluralsight.com. For books, Feathers'
                        Working Effectively With Legacy Code is great for this, too.

                        Steve




                        On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 11:39 AM, JackM <jack@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Adam,
                        >
                        > I would appreciate if you could recommend some resources on how to write
                        > faster tests.
                        >
                        > Thanks
                        > jack
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka wrote:
                        > >
                        > > This is not the answer you want, but I think it is a bad idea for you to
                        > > stop delivering features to improve the build, and if I were your VP I
                        > > would not let you either.
                        > >
                        > > You need to build a culture of continually improving your automation to
                        > > make it faster and easier to use. Otherwise, you're going to be right
                        > back
                        > > where you are in a few months asking for another chance to stop and fix
                        > it.
                        > >
                        > > I suspect the tests you are writing are not really microtests, and that
                        > is
                        > > a big part of the problem. I could recommend some resources to help you
                        > > learn how to write faster tests if you'd like.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:32 PM, JackM wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > **
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of automating
                        > the
                        > > > builds and continuous integration.
                        > > >
                        > > > Perhaps there's a good white paper on this topic.
                        > > >
                        > > > I don't need to be convinced, but trying to make a case to our VP on
                        > doing
                        > > > this first rather than working on new features.
                        > > >
                        > > > We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run and
                        > > > often times the build fails due to unit test failures.
                        > > >
                        > > > We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours from
                        > 3
                        > > > or 4 days.
                        > > >
                        > > > Just hard to quantify the benefits.
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks
                        > > > jack
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Steve Smith
                        http://Ardalis.com/
                        http://twitter.com/ardalis


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michael Hill
                        Jack... By way of blowing my own horn, I can strongly recommend Industrial Logic s 6-album set called The Testing and Refactoring Workshop. Four albums are
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 29, 2013
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                          Jack...

                          By way of blowing my own horn, I can strongly recommend Industrial Logic's
                          6-album set called The Testing and Refactoring Workshop. Four albums are
                          about microtesting, and give a great deal of info on practical techniques.
                          (The other two focus on Code Smells and Refactoring.)

                          The key to learning this test driven development business is in learning
                          how to make tests cheap. If they're not cheap, they won't be run or
                          maintained, and that guarantees they'll never be of benefit. We give lots
                          of attention to the very most basics of writing those cheap microtests.

                          Go here to see the first microtesting album:
                          http://www.industriallogic.com/elearning/ If you click through one of the
                          images you can browse samples of the album.

                          Seeya,
                          Hill

                          P.S. Apologies for the mercenary posting. I'd just say it's not about IL,
                          it's about the *author* of several of those. I'm egotistical, not greedy.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Adam Sroka
                          What language(s) are you working in? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 29, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            What language(s) are you working in?


                            On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:39 AM, JackM <jack@...> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Adam,
                            >
                            > I would appreciate if you could recommend some resources on how to write
                            > faster tests.
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            > jack
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka wrote:
                            > >
                            > > This is not the answer you want, but I think it is a bad idea for you to
                            > > stop delivering features to improve the build, and if I were your VP I
                            > > would not let you either.
                            > >
                            > > You need to build a culture of continually improving your automation to
                            > > make it faster and easier to use. Otherwise, you're going to be right
                            > back
                            > > where you are in a few months asking for another chance to stop and fix
                            > it.
                            > >
                            > > I suspect the tests you are writing are not really microtests, and that
                            > is
                            > > a big part of the problem. I could recommend some resources to help you
                            > > learn how to write faster tests if you'd like.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:32 PM, JackM wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > **
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of automating
                            > the
                            > > > builds and continuous integration.
                            > > >
                            > > > Perhaps there's a good white paper on this topic.
                            > > >
                            > > > I don't need to be convinced, but trying to make a case to our VP on
                            > doing
                            > > > this first rather than working on new features.
                            > > >
                            > > > We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run and
                            > > > often times the build fails due to unit test failures.
                            > > >
                            > > > We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours from
                            > 3
                            > > > or 4 days.
                            > > >
                            > > > Just hard to quantify the benefits.
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks
                            > > > jack
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Limbu
                            Hi Adam, I am interested, how to write faster test in any programming language such as Java, C#, PHP etc. Can you recommend some resources please ? Thank you
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 13, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Adam,

                              I am interested, how to write faster test in any programming language such as Java, C#, PHP etc. Can you recommend some resources please ?

                              Thank you

                              Regards and Metta,
                              Bhagi

                              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka wrote:
                              >
                              > What language(s) are you working in?
                              >
                              >
                              > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:39 AM, JackM wrote:
                              >
                              > > **
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hi Adam,
                              > >
                              > > I would appreciate if you could recommend some resources on how to write
                              > > faster tests.
                              > >
                              > > Thanks
                              > > jack
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > This is not the answer you want, but I think it is a bad idea for you to
                              > > > stop delivering features to improve the build, and if I were your VP I
                              > > > would not let you either.
                              > > >
                              > > > You need to build a culture of continually improving your automation to
                              > > > make it faster and easier to use. Otherwise, you're going to be right
                              > > back
                              > > > where you are in a few months asking for another chance to stop and fix
                              > > it.
                              > > >
                              > > > I suspect the tests you are writing are not really microtests, and that
                              > > is
                              > > > a big part of the problem. I could recommend some resources to help you
                              > > > learn how to write faster tests if you'd like.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:32 PM, JackM wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > **
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of automating
                              > > the
                              > > > > builds and continuous integration.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Perhaps there's a good white paper on this topic.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I don't need to be convinced, but trying to make a case to our VP on
                              > > doing
                              > > > > this first rather than working on new features.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run and
                              > > > > often times the build fails due to unit test failures.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours from
                              > > 3
                              > > > > or 4 days.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Just hard to quantify the benefits.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Thanks
                              > > > > jack
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Steve Smith
                              Write your tests without tight coupling to external dependencies. File systems, databases, etc. all make tests slow. I have a number of articles on this
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 14, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Write your tests without tight coupling to external dependencies. File
                                systems, databases, etc. all make tests slow. I have a number of articles
                                on this topic here:
                                http://ardalis.com/avoid-entrenched-dependencies

                                Steve


                                On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Limbu <ichirohang@...> wrote:

                                > **
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Adam,
                                >
                                > I am interested, how to write faster test in any programming language such
                                > as Java, C#, PHP etc. Can you recommend some resources please ?
                                >
                                > Thank you
                                >
                                > Regards and Metta,
                                > Bhagi
                                >
                                > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka wrote:
                                > >
                                > > What language(s) are you working in?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:39 AM, JackM wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > **
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Hi Adam,
                                > > >
                                > > > I would appreciate if you could recommend some resources on how to
                                > write
                                > > > faster tests.
                                > > >
                                > > > Thanks
                                > > > jack
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > This is not the answer you want, but I think it is a bad idea for
                                > you to
                                > > > > stop delivering features to improve the build, and if I were your VP
                                > I
                                > > > > would not let you either.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > You need to build a culture of continually improving your automation
                                > to
                                > > > > make it faster and easier to use. Otherwise, you're going to be right
                                > > > back
                                > > > > where you are in a few months asking for another chance to stop and
                                > fix
                                > > > it.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I suspect the tests you are writing are not really microtests, and
                                > that
                                > > > is
                                > > > > a big part of the problem. I could recommend some resources to help
                                > you
                                > > > > learn how to write faster tests if you'd like.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:32 PM, JackM wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > **
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Can anyone point me to some real numbers on the benefits of
                                > automating
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > builds and continuous integration.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Perhaps there's a good white paper on this topic.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I don't need to be convinced, but trying to make a case to our VP
                                > on
                                > > > doing
                                > > > > > this first rather than working on new features.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > We do have automated builds but the unit tests take forever to run
                                > and
                                > > > > > often times the build fails due to unit test failures.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > We want to make a substantial effort to get to builds in 12 hours
                                > from
                                > > > 3
                                > > > > > or 4 days.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Just hard to quantify the benefits.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Thanks
                                > > > > > jack
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >



                                --
                                Steve Smith
                                http://Ardalis.com/
                                http://twitter.com/ardalis


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