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Re: [XP] Re: Scrum, and Revolution

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  • Charlie Poole
    Hi Ron, I ve been meaning to look into these myself, for a couple of reasons. First, several folks I respect are into them fairly deeply. But second, on top of
    Message 1 of 167 , Dec 17, 2012
      Hi Ron,

      I've been meaning to look into these myself, for a couple of reasons.

      First, several folks I respect are into them fairly deeply.

      But second, on top of that, I had a conversation with Jim McCarthy at last
      year's Agile Open Northwest that led to an interesting thought...

      He was commenting on Open Space Technology, which I guess he hadn't had
      much exposure to before and I happened to mention the well-known OST catch
      phrase "It always works." Turns out he uses that very phrase for some of
      his stuff and we ended up conversing about how you deal with a technique
      that "always works" when trying to get people to try it. We both have found
      that you have to play down the "always works" part, because it doesn't
      sound believeable.

      But what he helped me realize is that we all know lots of techniques that
      always work - I'm dropping the quotes, because they really do work! For
      example, TDD always works, if we only take the trouble to do it. Entire
      systems like XP and Scrum also always work... again provided that one
      really does them. And yet, lots of people who imagine they have done TDD
      (or XP or Scrum) will tell you it didn't work.

      So I find it quite easy to believe that Jim's Core Protocols may really
      always work in exactly the same way - i.e. if and only if you do them.

      Charlie


      On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 5:53 PM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Hi Eric,
      >
      >
      > On Dec 17, 2012, at 8:40 PM, "geektank" <yahoogroups-m@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I've been looking deeper into The Core Protocols
      > http://liveingreatness.com for teamwork and Cynefin for decision making.
      > Some of the draft work going into more details in how to know where you are
      > in a domain (assuming you know what domain you are in) and what you should
      > be doing is looking pretty good to me
      > http://cognitive-edge.com/blog/entry/5818/the-complicated-domain/
      >
      > I'd enjoy sitting down somewhere and talking about these. They both strike
      > me as unlikely to take over the world, even if they're right.
      >
      > Ron Jeffries
      > www.XProgramming.com
      > Sometimes you just have to stop holding on with both hands, both feet, and
      > your tail, to get someplace better.
      > Of course you might plummet to the earth and die, but probably not: you
      > were made for this.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tom Rossen
      Rob, Thanks for your kind offer. I am currently gainfully employed - until Feb. 2, when my current contract runs out. Northern Trust renewed it as many times
      Message 167 of 167 , Dec 30, 2012
        Rob,

        Thanks for your kind offer. I am currently gainfully employed - until Feb.
        2, when my current contract runs out. Northern Trust renewed it as many
        times as they could, but there's a hard limit of 1.5 years.

        Re the high-performing teams: it's funny, but I really think I prefer
        working with an organization that's struggling with Agile. I'm extremely
        curious as to why XP practices, which seemed so obvious and satisfying when
        I first read Kent Beck's book years ago, are so frustrating for developers
        and managers who aren't used to them and didn't volunteer for them. I was
        rather seriously burned on my previous engagement when the company was
        acquired by a conglomerate and the policy of openness to Agile suddenly
        evaporated, so my insistence on TDD - which no longer seems as doomed as it
        would have been just a year ago, based on what I'm seeing now in the
        Chicago area - is protection against that sort of thing.

        So I'm curious about the high-performing teams you mention - at least in
        the Chicago area: I don't intend to relocate or commute a long distance (I
        worked in Madison, WI for several years after the dot-com-bomb wiped out
        the Chicago market - not a fun commute).

        Tom


        On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Rob Myers <rob.myers@...>wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Tom,
        >
        > Thanks for the supportive reply!
        >
        >
        > > 35 years in my case, and amen! Here's a snippet from the cover letter
        > I've
        > > been sending out recently:
        >
        > Tom, if you are not currently gainfully employed, I can point you to a few
        > truly high-performing teams across the country. They are in the minority,
        > as most software/IT organizations struggle to change those
        > command-and-control cultures, and to foster passion and creativity in both
        > Product and Development areas.
        >
        > > *I just thought of an analogy to explain why I am so single-minded about
        >
        > > TDD. Suppose you need an operation and you're looking for a hospital to
        > do
        > > it. A major hospital sends you a wonderful brochure explaining how
        > > successful they are, what a high-tech surgical suite they have,, etc.,
        > etc.
        > > But when you call up and ask them whether the surgeons wash their hands
        > > before operating, they say, "Why would we want to do that?" Oh yes,
        > > surgery was practiced for centuries before surgeons ever scrubbed up -
        > it's
        > > a great tradition. But I don't think you'd want to have anything to do
        > with
        > > a hospital like that. That's how I feel about TDD. It's a matter of
        > > funda**mental
        > > software hygiene. *
        >
        > It's a perfect analogy. Scott Bain uses this in his book /Emergent Design/
        > as one example of how software development is similar to surgery. (Aside:
        > Apologies if I popped an original-idea bubble: So often I find I think of
        > something original, only to spot it in a blog post the next day. It's the
        > Newton-Leibniz Effect ;-) The medical field provides an analogy that gets
        > us much farther than bridge-building. Of course, no analogy is perfect, but
        > I often find myself thinking "Doctor, it hurts when I do *this*!" ;-)
        >
        > Happy Holidays!
        >
        >
        > Rob
        >
        > Rob.Myers@...
        > Twitter: @agilecoach
        > http://www.agileInstitute.com/
        >
        >
        >


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