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Re: [XP] Re: Scrum, and Revolution

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  • M. Manca
    Ron, in my opinion we should need to divide how to manage a project using agile methods and how to develop the project (I mean XP practices as pair
    Message 1 of 167 , Dec 14, 2012
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      Ron,

      in my opinion we should need to divide how to manage a project using
      agile methods and how to develop the project (I mean XP practices as
      pair programming, TDD, and so on).

      In my opinion Scrum and Kanban are both good and there are times where
      one is better then the other, other times when could have sense during
      the project development switch to Kanban from Scrum (not necessarily for
      every team working on a project) and then back again.

      My opinion is that we should have 2 toolboxes one for the project
      management (strategy) and one for the project development (tactics). I
      used intentionally a military like terms because I think it is more
      clear what I mean.

      And I am still convinced that also if XP and agile estimating tecniques
      are good we should need another estimate model/process/algorithm for
      early estimates usable with a good accuracy interval to estimate the
      effort before to start the development. May be used at the Scrum 0
      iteration level after the 1st poker played. This estimate shouldn't be
      updated anymore because after the XP estimating practice will be used.

      Il 15/12/2012 03:16, RonJeffries ha scritto:
      >
      >
      > Hello, Derek,
      >
      > I'm more than a little surprised at the tone of your note here:
      >
      > On Dec 14, 2012, at 8:10 PM, Derek Neighbors <derek@...
      > <mailto:derek%40integrumtech.com>> wrote:
      >
      > > I have found this is largely because people in the community are
      > perfectly
      > > happy being where they are at, there is little desire for real change.
      > > There is a difference between following process (of any kind
      > > XP/Scrum/Kanban) and truly adapting and learning. This is often cited as
      > > "doing" agile instead of "being" agile. The truth is an equal percentage
      > > of people do XP and Kanban as bad as people do Scrum, there are just
      > a hell
      > > of a lot less of them doing so. It is merely a numbers game.
      >
      > I doubt this and would invite you to quote some source indicating that
      > the percentage of bad XP is the same as bad Scrum.
      >
      > I have no data either way. I reason as follows: It is harder to do bad
      > XP because XP is more prescriptive about what you have to be doing, so
      > it is easier to get caught out if you claim to be doing XP but still
      > don't have continuous integration or something.
      > >
      > > The original signatories seem to have little to no interest in
      > changing the
      > > "historical" document (manifesto).
      >
      > That's correct. A manifesto is a historical document. One does not
      > rewrite the Magna Carta. One makes a new agreement. I don't think the
      > Agile Manifesto rises to the level of the Magna Carta in significance,
      > but it is nonetheless a document written at a point in time.
      >
      > > Many of them are too busy aligning some
      > > certification scheme or retooling an existing one to win the
      > "process" war.
      >
      > Rudeness objection. Unsupported, and I suspect unsupportable.
      >
      > > Plus, most who started the revolution already won. They got what they
      > > wanted. They wanted to ship software and be on a team that was human.
      > > They did that. They proved that.
      >
      > Actually, while this isn't objectionable, the word "most" is
      > unsupported, and a quick reflection on what the AM authors are dong
      > for a living suggests that it is probably unsupportable.
      >
      > I'm really wondering what would cause you to say these things that
      > seem to me to seriously mischaracterize what people are doing.
      > >
      > > Now we are asking for entire organizations to be human. We are
      > looking at
      > > systems instead of teams. We are facing much deeper challenges and much
      > > greater complexity. The Scrum Alliance is unable to adapt to this
      > > environment. Largely because they have created a nice model for
      > CST's, one
      > > that they are not yet ready to change. Think how hard the recording
      > > industry fought against napster, threatening their business model.
      >
      > Your characterization of the Scrum Alliance's motives and actions is
      > quite inaccurate. I'm not sure where you're getting your information.
      > That said, the Scrum Alliance, and the "Scrum community" is large, and
      > it is not easy to bring that ship about. As you may know, I'm working
      > that side of the problem as well, so I'm pretty familiar with what's
      > going on, what people are trying to do, and how hard it is.
      > >
      > > There are people lighting fires for the revolution. They are
      > throwing tea
      > > off boats. You just don't see it on this list because it's not where the
      > > revolutionaries do their business. This list is status quo, not the
      > > disruption.
      >
      > Interesting. Please direct us to information on these revolutionaries
      > of whom you speak. I'd like to know what they're doing and help out.
      > So would others, I think. It looks to me as if there are lots of
      > startup kinds of ventures who are using XP / Scrum / Agile ideas to
      > build things, and that's fine, but I have not seen a lot of people
      > taking some new revolution to the people. I'd like to know about that.
      > >
      > > Ron I guess I would ask what was the original intent of this message? (A
      > > core protocol's intention check so to speak)
      >
      > I'll answer the question as best I can.
      >
      > I wrote the message because I think that the time may be right for a
      > resurgence of some of the more pragmatic and "hard core" notions that
      > this community stands for (despite your remarks above). Scrum teams
      > who actually try Scrum generally get some benefit, and there are
      > usually people in and around them that would like to see more. Part of
      > getting more benefit requires that they do the things that XP has and
      > Scrum hasn't. So it seems to me that there is an opportunity to help
      > by raising people's consciousness about some next, practical, things
      > to do.
      >
      > Second, there are people on this list who have been active in the
      > revolution that was part of Agile, and who may still not be too tired
      > to try to do more. Since I think the time may be right, I wrote the
      > message to see whether there was interest.
      >
      > Now a return question. You threw water on the fire, as I see it. What
      > was your intention in doing that?
      >
      > Ron Jeffries
      > www.XProgramming.com
      > I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
      > Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
      > Yin and Yang I figure.
      > -- Tom Jeffries
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tom Rossen
      Rob, Thanks for your kind offer. I am currently gainfully employed - until Feb. 2, when my current contract runs out. Northern Trust renewed it as many times
      Message 167 of 167 , Dec 30, 2012
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        Rob,

        Thanks for your kind offer. I am currently gainfully employed - until Feb.
        2, when my current contract runs out. Northern Trust renewed it as many
        times as they could, but there's a hard limit of 1.5 years.

        Re the high-performing teams: it's funny, but I really think I prefer
        working with an organization that's struggling with Agile. I'm extremely
        curious as to why XP practices, which seemed so obvious and satisfying when
        I first read Kent Beck's book years ago, are so frustrating for developers
        and managers who aren't used to them and didn't volunteer for them. I was
        rather seriously burned on my previous engagement when the company was
        acquired by a conglomerate and the policy of openness to Agile suddenly
        evaporated, so my insistence on TDD - which no longer seems as doomed as it
        would have been just a year ago, based on what I'm seeing now in the
        Chicago area - is protection against that sort of thing.

        So I'm curious about the high-performing teams you mention - at least in
        the Chicago area: I don't intend to relocate or commute a long distance (I
        worked in Madison, WI for several years after the dot-com-bomb wiped out
        the Chicago market - not a fun commute).

        Tom


        On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Rob Myers <rob.myers@...>wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Tom,
        >
        > Thanks for the supportive reply!
        >
        >
        > > 35 years in my case, and amen! Here's a snippet from the cover letter
        > I've
        > > been sending out recently:
        >
        > Tom, if you are not currently gainfully employed, I can point you to a few
        > truly high-performing teams across the country. They are in the minority,
        > as most software/IT organizations struggle to change those
        > command-and-control cultures, and to foster passion and creativity in both
        > Product and Development areas.
        >
        > > *I just thought of an analogy to explain why I am so single-minded about
        >
        > > TDD. Suppose you need an operation and you're looking for a hospital to
        > do
        > > it. A major hospital sends you a wonderful brochure explaining how
        > > successful they are, what a high-tech surgical suite they have,, etc.,
        > etc.
        > > But when you call up and ask them whether the surgeons wash their hands
        > > before operating, they say, "Why would we want to do that?" Oh yes,
        > > surgery was practiced for centuries before surgeons ever scrubbed up -
        > it's
        > > a great tradition. But I don't think you'd want to have anything to do
        > with
        > > a hospital like that. That's how I feel about TDD. It's a matter of
        > > funda**mental
        > > software hygiene. *
        >
        > It's a perfect analogy. Scott Bain uses this in his book /Emergent Design/
        > as one example of how software development is similar to surgery. (Aside:
        > Apologies if I popped an original-idea bubble: So often I find I think of
        > something original, only to spot it in a blog post the next day. It's the
        > Newton-Leibniz Effect ;-) The medical field provides an analogy that gets
        > us much farther than bridge-building. Of course, no analogy is perfect, but
        > I often find myself thinking "Doctor, it hurts when I do *this*!" ;-)
        >
        > Happy Holidays!
        >
        >
        > Rob
        >
        > Rob.Myers@...
        > Twitter: @agilecoach
        > http://www.agileInstitute.com/
        >
        >
        >


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