Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XP] Story sizes and productivity gains

Expand Messages
  • George Dinwiddie
    Ron, ... Another good question. My initial point is that the rest of the sentence is superfluous. Even if we think we have a good reason (or are just curious),
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 21, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Ron,

      On 6/21/12 2:44 PM, RonJeffries wrote:
      > George ...
      >
      > On Jun 21, 2012, at 2:38 PM, George Dinwiddie wrote:
      >
      >> Any ideas on how to measure team productivity?
      >
      >
      > Any ideas on WHY to measure team productivity?

      Another good question. My initial point is that the rest of the sentence
      is superfluous. Even if we think we have a good reason (or are just
      curious), we have /no/ way to measure this concept "productivity" in
      knowledge work.

      - George

      --
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    • RonJeffries
      Hi George, ... Yes, I do fully agree, of course. In addition, I ve never seen a proposed measure that I could not immediately game to my advantage. Ron
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 21, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi George,

        On Jun 21, 2012, at 3:03 PM, George Dinwiddie wrote:

        > My initial point is that the rest of the sentence
        > is superfluous. Even if we think we have a good reason (or are just
        > curious), we have /no/ way to measure this concept "productivity" in
        > knowledge work.


        Yes, I do fully agree, of course. In addition, I've never seen a proposed measure that I could not immediately game to my advantage.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
        Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
        Yin and Yang I figure.
        -- Tom Jeffries



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dave Rooney
        Hi Paul, ... I saw Scott give a presentation with Jeff Sutherland at Agile 2010 about this. During the session, I called BS to all of the numbers he and Jeff
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 21, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Paul,

          On 2012-06-21, at 1:27 PM, Paul Epps wrote:

          > I saw a presentation by Scott Downey last night at Agile SoCal on hyperproductive Scrum teams. Downey defines a hyperproductive team as a team that achieves a 500% increase over its initial velocity, as measured in story points.
          >

          I saw Scott give a presentation with Jeff Sutherland at Agile 2010 about this. During the session, I called BS to all of the numbers he and Jeff said you should track, but the crowd ate it up. Clearly I was swimming upstream against a torrent.

          I had a discussion with another conference attendee afterwards, someone who had been a VP of development. His org had a policy that allowed employees to order pizza if they were working late into supper hours. He said the only metric he used to evaluate whether he needed to ask some questions was the number of pizzas ordered in a given week. He didn't need velocity, he didn't need utilization vs. capacity, he didn't need *any* of the BS numbers that Downey & Sutherland say are critical.

          This is my opinion, but I do know that it's shared with other people: Hyperproductivity is marketing BS that has done much more harm than good by being the Promised Land of Scrum. Your mileage (and opinion) may vary, of course. :)

          Dave Rooney
          daverooneyca@...



          >
          > I've seen Ron Jeffries recommend not using story points, instead sizing stories consistently around a couple of days, and counting stories instead of points. That's always seemed like a good idea to me, but after Downey's presentation, I was trying to think about how to measure productivity gains when sizing stories at a couple of days.
          >
          > To take a simple example, if I can do a story every two days, then I can do five stories in a two-week sprint. By definition (story = 2 days), I will continue to complete five stories per sprint forever. In order to demonstrate improvement over time, I would need a new measurement, e.g., value, right?
          >
          > Any ideas on how to measure team productivity over time using consistent story sizes?
          >
          > Thanks...
          >
          > Paul Epps
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Adrian Howard
          ... The scary thing about that metric is that I ve seen too many places where they would consider more pizza orders to be a *good* thing :-) Adrian --
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 21, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            On 21 Jun 2012, at 20:42, Dave Rooney wrote:

            > He said the only metric he used to evaluate whether he needed to ask some questions was the number of pizzas ordered in a given week.

            The scary thing about that metric is that I've seen too many places where they would consider more pizza orders to be a *good* thing :-)

            Adrian
            --
            http://quietstars.com adrianh@... twitter.com/adrianh
            t. +44 (0)7752 419080 skype adrianjohnhoward pinboard.in/u:adrianh
          • M. Manca
            Il 21/06/2012 21:17, RonJeffries ha scritto: Hi Ron and George, the point is always the same, some questions seem done by a manager that needs to know when
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 21, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Il 21/06/2012 21:17, RonJeffries ha scritto:
              Hi Ron and George,

              the point is always the same, some questions seem done by a manager that
              needs to know when things will be done (not agile manager) and others by
              a perfect XP team leader.
              I think that both may be superfluous in a perfect XP contest and both
              may be necessary in a not XP contest. The problem is what Scott Downey
              said during the presentation.
              >
              >
              > Hi George,
              >
              > On Jun 21, 2012, at 3:03 PM, George Dinwiddie wrote:
              >
              > > My initial point is that the rest of the sentence
              > > is superfluous. Even if we think we have a good reason (or are just
              > > curious), we have /no/ way to measure this concept "productivity" in
              > > knowledge work.
              >
              > Yes, I do fully agree, of course. In addition, I've never seen a
              > proposed measure that I could not immediately game to my advantage.
              >
              > Ron Jeffries
              > www.XProgramming.com
              > I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
              > Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
              > Yin and Yang I figure.
              > -- Tom Jeffries
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Paul Epps
              ... Good observation! Thanks everyone for the helpful replies. pe
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 21, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:
                >
                > (BTW, I really enjoy the pushback I get from management on that - that
                > development should be responsible for precise enough estimations to support
                > all sorts of management metrics whereas the business does not have to be
                > responsible for determining the actual value of being delivered what they
                > ask for).

                Good observation!

                Thanks everyone for the helpful replies.

                pe
              • Tim Ottinger
                ... What is the relation between the two?  If the value is low, would you improve it by increasing or decreasing the rate of production?  It sounds to me
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 22, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  > Downey described the purpose with this user story: AS A Scrum Product Owner who
                  > is trying to evaluate the efficacy of the product directions I have chosen, I
                  > NEED a reliable way to measure the increased value
                  > contribution of the Team sprint-over-sprint SO THAT I can compare the Team's
                  > rate of value contribution increase to the changes in revenue we are generating
                  > and adjust our direction if the value isn't being realized.

                  What is the relation between the two? 

                  If the value is low, would you improve it by increasing or decreasing the rate of production? 

                  It sounds to me like checking the speedometer to determine the direction of travel.
                   
                  Tim Ottinger
                  http://IndustrialLogic.com/
                • JeffGrigg
                  ... Knowledge Gained, divided by Time. ;-
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 23, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:
                    > [W]e have /no/ way to measure this concept "productivity" in
                    > knowledge work.

                    Knowledge Gained, divided by Time.


                    ;->
                  • JeffGrigg
                    ... Oh; so all I have to do to be hyper-productive is start out really crappy. Hey; I think I can do that! ;-
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 23, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- "Paul Epps" <paul@...> wrote:
                      > ... Downey defines a hyperproductive team as a team that
                      > achieves a 500% increase over its initial velocity, as
                      > measured in story points.

                      Oh; so all I have to do to be hyper-productive is start out really crappy. Hey; I think I can do that! >;->
                    • Steve Freeman
                      ... funny you should say that.... have you seen the baseline Sutherland s team started from? S.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 24, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On 23 Jun 2012, at 09:29, JeffGrigg wrote:
                        > --- "Paul Epps" <paul@...> wrote:
                        >> ... Downey defines a hyperproductive team as a team that
                        >> achieves a 500% increase over its initial velocity, as
                        >> measured in story points.
                        >
                        > Oh; so all I have to do to be hyper-productive is start out really crappy. Hey; I think I can do that! >;->

                        funny you should say that.... have you seen the baseline Sutherland's team started from?

                        S.
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.